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Do you believe in being saved by Jesus Christ?

Please explain your experience.

VotesAnswer
30Yes
34No
8don't know


UserComment
anoddoblivion
posted 7-Feb-2003 1:17pm  
Of course. How can you not? I guess it is hard to accept if your not brought up a spoon fed Christian. I understand this. Anyway...

went to the play "Hevean's Gates and Hell's Flames", and the pastor at the end asked us to come up if we wanted to be saved, said a prayer with us all, and then talked with us individually about it. I was 16. Since then, the holy spirit within me has come out big time.
mrnemo15
posted 7-Feb-2003 1:36pm  
I know it'll shock a lot of you, but I'm an atheist. I have never felt anything other than boredom in church, any church. I tend to take a scientific view of the universe. It has gotten me attacked by a few of the more fervent believers I have talked to, but it's fun.
dora
posted 7-Feb-2003 1:46pm  
No.I don't believe in any god,let alone a christian god,so for me Jesus Christ is just an interesting historical character and nothing more.A good man I guess,with a lot of influence and that I respect very much,but I'm not saved by him.He's dead.
mandy
posted 7-Feb-2003 2:26pm  
No. I do believe this seems like a real phenomenon to followers of this religion, and hell, whatever you have to do to get through the day is up to you, but to me it seems as silly as asking, "Do you believe in being Saved by Zero?"
I will save myself. I am driving the bus. I don't even know if I believe I have a soul to be saved. I believe in being saved by reason and intellect and logic and science.
cody
posted 7-Feb-2003 2:27pm  
No, I don't believe in your fairy tale.

Devotees of religion are exempt from developing certain neurotic illnesses,
Their belief in the universal neurosis spares them the task of developing their own.
Zang
posted 7-Feb-2003 2:30pm  
I believe that many people believe this, so in that sense, yes. The phrase and idea seems to be peculiar to various American Protestant groups. I could be wrong, but as far as I know, most other Christians don't use that particular language to describe their religious experiences. I think it has a lot to do with the history and culture of the United States, from the various "Puritan" type groups that first colonised North America in the 1600s, down to the big "Revivalists" of the 1800s and the "Televangelist" of more recent times.

As far as my own personal experiences go, I've rambled on about this here in the past numerous times, but I'll do it again if need be.

I don't consider myself a Christian. My family is Christian, and I was raised as a Christian. I live in a predominantly Christian culture. I have a Bible, and I read it. My beliefs are more consistent with Hinduism. I'm not a big fan of organised religion, but I think it is fine for some people, just not for me. I tend to think of it as a social group for people who "think alike".

I do believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and that He can lead people on the right path. I don't believe that He has any kind of exclusive ability in this regard. There have been many prophets and avatars. Any one of them can provide the same thing.
mandy
(reply to cody) posted 7-Feb-2003 2:55pm  
Well put.
Enheduanna Survey Central Subscriber
posted 7-Feb-2003 3:37pm  
No. I don't believe in God or in the divinity of Jesus.
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
posted 7-Feb-2003 3:54pm  
I don't believe in me being saved by Jesus Christ, no. He's dead, in the past. I'm alive, in the present. I imagine back when he was still alive, he may have saved some people from a whole variety of things. I'm happy to believe there was considerable truth in the accounts in the Bible about the healing of sick people even though I don't believe it was the touch of God that cured them.
Mego0715
posted 7-Feb-2003 3:57pm  
Not at all.
BrightBlue
posted 7-Feb-2003 4:02pm  
No, I am not Christian, though I do believe that Jesus was a wise man. Sadly, his teachings spawned yet another unnecessary religion. People want a quick fix, a simple way to find happiness. So they look to others who appear more wise than themselves. But, in fact, spirituality is personal. There is no one path for everyone. The best someone can do is give you the tools and show you a possible way to enlightenment. You have to find your own way. Learn from others, but walk your own path.
BrightBlue
(reply to Zang) posted 7-Feb-2003 4:04pm  
Well said.
Zang
(reply to BrightBlue) posted 7-Feb-2003 4:24pm  
Thank you!  * smile *
romkey Survey Central Gold Subscriber
posted 7-Feb-2003 4:32pm  
nope. It's one of the sillier proposals I've heard from organized religion. I can see how the idea might be rather seductive but it just doesn't make any sense or seem consistent with the way the world appears to work in any way.
Hans
posted 7-Feb-2003 4:40pm  
I know that my redeemer liveth.
Galomorro
posted 7-Feb-2003 8:08pm  
No. I am a Buddhist, not a Christian.
anonymous
posted 7-Feb-2003 9:45pm  
"The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life."
Sigmund Freud

Steven
posted 8-Feb-2003 1:51am  
I can't say that I believe in being "saved" by Jesus. However, I do believe in the "Christo" state of consciousness, which is what I believe the myth of Jesus, Helios and other similar spiritual/religious figures represent. It's a Piscean Age thing...
ROCKMAN
posted 8-Feb-2003 10:21am  
I believe and I'll just leave it at that.
Maarten
posted 8-Feb-2003 11:01am  
Nope
juliw
posted 8-Feb-2003 4:58pm  
yes,,,nothing to explain
kaleb777
posted 8-Feb-2003 7:59pm  
No. I believe some people can't be saved. I'm not really sure what is involved with getting saved anyway. I also think the Bible sends conflicting messages so it is impossible to really know how to act in order to qualify for saving. Then there's always the thing where people who are supposedly 'saved' are some of the most bigoted, nasty people out who certainly don't love the sinner. Looking at people who consider themselves saved, I don't see it as something to aspire to.
mrnemo15
(reply to kaleb777) posted 9-Feb-2003 11:53am  
thank you! I couldn't have said it better myself. (About the bible, I believe it sends conflicting messages because it has been translated so many times, and translated word for word. A beautiful metaphorical passage in Jewish or whatnot might not make sense in English, yet it is still taken as the exact words spoken by god. Chaos, your name is literal translation.)
pterodactyl
posted 9-Feb-2003 12:51pm  
No, nor do I believe in being saved by the Easter bunny, Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy.
punkess
posted 9-Feb-2003 12:52pm  
I am having a hard time beleiving in christianity, but jesus has already saved our souls, it is our job to make to good decisions, then again, we all need saving and heaven can't help us all
justjulie
posted 9-Feb-2003 5:53pm  
no...i believe that one saves themselves, HOWEVER, if jesus christ has graced your life and you feel it has in way way or the other helped you to get through what you may have been going through, then i could see how one could say that "jesus christ" has saved you, even though it was by your own doing...(taking the knowledge and light you have received in order to alter your thinking)but i also think that the knowledge can be received from anywhere and anyone and anything...big JC hasn't been my personal "savior" i do have some of the beliefs under my belt, basically just morals, but any farther than that w/ JC i don't think so, i personally have been traveling my own road since i was 7 and learned of all the hypocracy in this christian chruch...but to each is own
kaleb777
(reply to mrnemo15) posted 9-Feb-2003 6:07pm  
Yeah, imagine if Christians actually acted like the Bible commands and went around killing disbelievers and interbreeding rather than allow daughters marry one of "those" people.

One good thing, there's always a Bible passage that you can use to argue against another passage.
Glassa
posted 9-Feb-2003 11:12pm  
Absolutely! I've had some things happen in my life that I wonder if I'd even still be alive if it weren't for Jesus. Mild occasional child abuse, mostly mental, very low self esteem, at times suicidal. I just had to believe that God had something in mind for me down the road and I still live my life that way.

And also, I had symptoms of an ulcer a few weeks ago, very painful. But I had an endoscopy done and they found nothing wrong and by that point the pain was gone. Many people were praying for me..

My parents are divorced after my mother cheated on my father. Yet even though they are both remarried they get along, and even go out to eat with us and have celebrated Christmas together with their respective spouses (my stepfather is the one my mother cheated on my dad with) NOW THAT IS A MIRACLE!

Yes, God/Jesus exists, but you have to accept Him.
Cain
posted 10-Feb-2003 7:42am  
Not in the slightest.
Dino
posted 10-Feb-2003 8:03am  
No. I believe that he has some views on goodness and human endevour. I don't believe in his views and centredness on God.

I don't believe he has the power to save people. Only the individual can do that. I'm a Buddhist. I don't believe the Buddha can save people either. He gave ideas on how people can save themselves but he can't do it for you.
anonymous
posted 10-Feb-2003 12:31pm  
Its so alarming to read some of these posts.
As far as some of the posts saying you save yourself? How is this so?? What if you came up with a serious disease?? you can't save yourself from that, unless the Good Lord reaches down with his presence and helps you through it.
You can't save yourself from a car wreck either. Yes, you are in control of the car as a driver, but fate lies within the lord, not u.
dora
(reply to justjulie) posted 10-Feb-2003 12:52pm  
I have to say I don't believe in god as an entity.But I do believe in prayer...I think that prayer can help someone reach "higher" states where you can actually experience some kind of enlightenment,or simply feel more energized and concentrated...I think that addressing prayers to something outside us (like a god)is easier and makes the prayer effective,because I guess you have to go into some kind of trance to achieve this state I'm talking about...but it's really INSIDE you,is a part of you you usually don't think about,and that is often considered to be "god"---because consciously we block or god-like qualities (and our devil-like qualities as well I guess...)Of course we can't be all powerful,but nobody can,and that's why I don't believe in god.It goes against any logic for me.But I believe we humans can do miracles and experience miracles.But it has do with our human nature,and nature as a whole,not with god.I don't see miracles as something special and out of the natural laws,but as a part of the natural world.
I think we are both god and the devil.But I also believe that we are connected to each other and to everything else.I believe in energy,and that energy isn't neither good or bad,and it's up to you to use it well...it's funny when I say I'm an atheist and dumb people think we aren't very spiritual,but I am...I just don't believe in GOD.I believe in energy,nature,and the power of symbols. * smile *

starrpickle
posted 10-Feb-2003 2:51pm  
for me its kinda like when you hear a question and you know the answer, but have no idea how you know the answer i just have always believed as long as i can remember my parents or friends did'nt believe no one ever taught me i just knew
Boaz
posted 10-Feb-2003 4:10pm  
Yes, I've been saved "born again" by Jesus Christ. I was saved at the age of 13. The experience of salvation is referenced by several phrases in the New Testament.

Born again is one of those references. Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born again to see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3&7)

Peter referred to salvation as being born again by an incorruptible seed which is the Word of God. (1 Peter 1:23)

Salvation is also referred to as a washing and regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. (Titus 3:5)

Salvation is an experience and not just a matter of the human mind. It's about the soul and spirit and the need to be made whole by knowing your creator.
mrnemo15
(reply to dora) posted 10-Feb-2003 8:48pm  
Way to go! I agree with all that you said. (Except the symbols, I've never understood those, but what the heck.) Have you read Illusions, by Richard Bach? He says pretty much exactly what you do about the power of the human mind, and about how miracles aren't really outside of nature, but are simply an action of a part of us that most of us don't know we have.
mrnemo15
(reply to anonymous) posted 10-Feb-2003 8:54pm  
What's this about it being alarming to read our posts? They are only our opinions, there's nothing alarming about that.

If we came up with an incurable disease, and truly wanted to stay in this world, then I believe we would. (Remission:When the disease cures itself.) If we really want to stay in this world, we'll drive safely and defensively. (If we don't, then we really mustn't want to stay in this world.)

Our fate lies within ourselves, and only that. To say that our fate lies within the lord is to simply refuse control of our lives, and to let what will be, be.
justjulie
(reply to dora) posted 11-Feb-2003 8:18am  
I don't really believe in a "god" either. whether it be "god" or "buddah" or whomever. personally i have a problem w/ naming or labeling something in which is unexplainable or awesome. to me it's like putting this awesomeness inside a box, which is impossible and wrong for it leaves no room to grow. i do believe in a "higher power", but i think that the higher power is simply an elevated stated of awareness or conciousness; enlightenment. i too believe that we are all "god-like", but i too believe that it has to do w/ your personal connection w/ energy. it's all about energy to me. i agree w/ you on your views of miracles, that they come from w/in...also, my view of "prayer" is the same as yours, but i call it something different, i call it a message to the universe...same thing really, again i personally have a problem w/ putting the name prayer on it, simply for what i have learned about this church and what-not....
tis sad that we don't live near each other for i think that outside of this virtual world, we would hang out and get along...i have problems w/ women in the "real world", have very few female friends for most of the women i come across kind'a disgust me * wink *
anywho...we share similar beliefs about energy nature and symbols...stay true my sista'!! * smile *
justjulie
(reply to mrnemo15) posted 11-Feb-2003 8:22am  
"amen"  * wink *
anonymous
posted 11-Feb-2003 9:33am  
Correct, these are opinions, but when you believe as deeply as i do, its hard to understand when someone says, "we create our own destiny". yes, we have control over whether we go to college, where we visit, what we eat, but if we had as much control over things as some seem to think we do, we would NEVER die, never be sick and "all" would be great all the time. Thats not how its set up. We were made in God's image, not made to "Be" God.
I agree with Boaz
sonikJ
posted 11-Feb-2003 9:52am  
Yes, I do. I got saved just last year, and I have experienced an almost 180 degree turn around in my life.
dora
(reply to mrnemo15) posted 11-Feb-2003 11:01am  
 * smile *
dora
(reply to justjulie) posted 11-Feb-2003 11:01am  
 * smile *
ldw
(reply to sonikJ) posted 11-Feb-2003 11:48am  
So proud to hear that.Good luck to you!
ldw
(reply to BrightBlue) posted 11-Feb-2003 11:56am  
He is NOT dead. You can't physically see him, but he is not dead. He rose from the dead.
He is our creator and anything we are able to do, is through him.
BrightBlue
(reply to ldw) posted 11-Feb-2003 4:46pm  
That is a view based on your religious beliefs. I don't share those beliefs. I respect your right to believe what you wish, and you WILL do the same for me. Don't assume that what you believe is universally right just because you were taught so. The world is full of different views. There is no single right one.
ldw
(reply to BrightBlue) posted 12-Feb-2003 9:49am  
Your right, it is my view. I was just trying to enlighten you on what I thought.
mrnemo15
posted 12-Feb-2003 10:06am  
I think we've just witnessed a miracle. Two people with different views (BrightBlue and ldw) just exchanged opinions without any threats, declarations of war, or shouting. If that's not a miracle, I don't know what is.
dora
(reply to mrnemo15) posted 12-Feb-2003 12:00pm  
Humankind is kind sometimes!  * smile *
Boaz
posted 12-Feb-2003 4:30pm  
Everybody has the right to be wrong, but it can be fatal!
mrnemo15
(reply to dora) posted 12-Feb-2003 4:49pm  
lol! (by the way, how do you guys make the smiley faces, or the other kinds of faces? I've been trying to figure it out, but I really can't seem to get it. can you help me out a bit?)
dora
(reply to mrnemo15) posted 12-Feb-2003 4:58pm  
Click on "Help"  * smile *

BrightBlue
(reply to ldw) posted 12-Feb-2003 5:21pm  
And I thank you for sharing your beliefs.  * smile * I think it's wonderful that you have found happiness with Jesus. It doesn't matter to me where you find your enlightenment. Whether it be through Jesus, Buddha, Mother Earth, Mohammed, whatever...it all leads towards the goal of becoming a better person and learning to love. And I respect that.  * smile *
Hans
(reply to ldw) posted 12-Feb-2003 8:27pm  
 * smile * !!!
pinkfloyd29
posted 13-Feb-2003 11:09am  
WHEN I WAS BORN, I WAS DEDICATED TO THE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, SO FOR ME THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO BELIEVE. I TRIED FOR A LONG TIME TO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SAVIOR OF JESUS CHRIST, BUT IT LED ME DOWN A ROAD OF DRUGS AND SELF-DESTRUCTION.
LocoXXL
posted 13-Feb-2003 1:24pm  
I don't believe in Jesus.
dora
(reply to pinkfloyd29) posted 13-Feb-2003 6:41pm  
Okay,but don't shout!  * smile *
ldw
(reply to LocoXXL) posted 14-Feb-2003 10:51am  
May I ask why you don't believe?
anonymous
posted 14-Feb-2003 11:50am  
I hope the ones who checked they didn't know if they believed in being saved, will search and find a answer to make them sure. I hope the answer is yes, i believe.
LocoXXL
(reply to ldw) posted 14-Feb-2003 12:41pm  
I'm Wiccan.

I guess you can say I believe Jesus existed, he was probably a nice guy, partying and such, but I don't believe he was the Son of God.
2bfound
posted 14-Feb-2003 12:49pm  
there is but one way
ldw
(reply to 2bfound) posted 18-Feb-2003 1:20pm  
what way do you believe is the One way?
2bfound
(reply to ldw) posted 20-Feb-2003 9:04am  
JN 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
2bfound
(reply to BrightBlue) posted 20-Feb-2003 9:18am  
I believe you contradicted yourself back there.
TheseFacts
posted 20-Feb-2003 1:45pm  
OF COURSE Jesus is the Son of God, He is GOD himself.
You don't believe it? I can tell you that I do not believe in trucks, then walk right across the highway and BUM! Hit by a truck... Weather I believe it or not the truck is there and it is very real.
The fact that you some don't believe is not relevant at all.
Please give us some reasons, some facts, some prove, a better argument.
We all like the easy way, human nature that is. We don't want to be unattached from our old, same old life style full of "good things". Nahhhh, We say I cannot follow that, it is too convicting...
Self, self, self... Pride. And pride is not good
BrightBlue
(reply to 2bfound) posted 20-Feb-2003 2:23pm  
How so?
2bfound
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 20-Feb-2003 2:23pm  
point well taken
2bfound
(reply to BrightBlue) posted 20-Feb-2003 2:37pm  
You wrote:

That is a view based on your religious beliefs. I don't share those beliefs. I respect your right to believe what you wish, and you WILL do the same for me. Don't assume that what you believe is universally right just because you were taught so. The world is full of different views. There is no single right one.

You allude, that one worldview cannot be right, or one idea cannot be right, that all are right. Obviously you have not taken the time to think this through.

If your statement is correct than your statement is wrong, because you are saying your opinion like ldw’s are both right, so in essence ldw is right.

Truth by definition is exclusive, and if exclusive by nature it excludes. If Christianity is right then by definition everything else is wrong!

All religions cannot be right if all religions contradict themselves:

Hinduism says we have many gods (pantheism) but Islam says there is but one god (monism) it clearly flies in the face of Buddhism in which there is no god. The god of Islam hates the Jew’s and Christians, yet Jesus loved all of them. One has a personal heaven, another will make you your own god (Mormonism) another denies there is a heaven. One says only 144,000 are going to heaven (Jehovah’s witness) Christianity says all can go.

My question to you is: Will the real god stand up or do we have a schizophrenic god on our hand??????
“Oh… who can save us”?




Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 20-Feb-2003 3:38pm  
"There is a God" is not a falsifiable statement, thus it is not scientific. "There is no God" is scientific. The onus is not on us to disprove your statement (as that is impossible) but on you to disprove ours.
BrightBlue
(reply to 2bfound) posted 21-Feb-2003 12:17am  
I know exactly what I mean, 2bfound, my comment was not based on insufficient thought or knowledge. I am a relativist, meaning I believe that truth (specifically spiritual truth) is not absolute and is instead relative to the observer. As such, it matters not whether your religion thinks I'm right or not. I am right...FOR ME. Just as your faith is right...FOR YOU. Your spiritual truth is your truth, and mine is mine. You can imagine your god waving his finger at me all you like, but I don't follow your path, your god is not my god.
And yes, I understand that you think I'm wrong, and that's fine. I think you're wrong too, but I don't mind as long as you don't try to push your beliefs on me.
Ultimately, faith is personal. You can give someone an idea of where to go, but you can't walk them down the path. So don't bother, I know exactly where I'm going.
2bfound
(reply to BrightBlue) posted 21-Feb-2003 7:11am  
There is no such thing as relativism. Would your statement that truth is relative (spiritual) be true here and across the globe?
Is truth then local or can it encompass time and location?
You are making absolute statements "truth is true for you but not for me" Yet you conclude falsely that truth is relative. If you are a relativist than your last post is not true.
Faith is not personal, people come to faith through public means.
I believe Christ made a public statement when He hung publicly on a cross, for all who would receive.
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 21-Feb-2003 7:22am  
Biggles, you conclude falsely that the statement "there is a God" is unscientific or false.
To the non-theist, the default is not there is no God, but rather the burden of proof is on them that there is no god.
If anything the default position should better stated "I don't know if there is a god" that of agnosticism.

For me and say Newton, Pascal, Bacon, Kepler and many more we see a teleological aspect to this universe that speaks of a creator, and may I say all these men where not just scientist but icons of science.
You yourself se design in the sciences, don't you?
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 21-Feb-2003 10:14am  
I didn't say that it was false, I said that it was unfalsifiable and therefore not a scientific statement. I take it you haven't come across Karl Popper? He said that for a statement to be scientific, it must be falsifiable - you can say "there are no pink swans" and that is scientific because you can disprove it as soon as you see a pink swan. If you just say "there are pink swans" that isn't falsifiable because no matter how hard you look, there could always be a pink swan somewhere else.

The whole falsifiable thing is generally accepted.

The default position may be agnosticism, but that doesn't even provide a hypothesis, never mind one that can be falsified!  * smile *

Follow me now? I honestly wasn't saying that science has concluded that there is no God, because it hasn't.

I don't see design in the sciences, no. I see physics, chemistry, evolution and all of that. Design implies a designer and I certainly don't accept that concept.
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 21-Feb-2003 11:00am  
Good argument.  * smile *

OK, my friend but you can know a thing is true by inference.
The laws of logic are not tangible but we know they are true and there, so we come to the logical conclusion by inference "the laws of logic exist".
Boaz
posted 21-Feb-2003 11:27am  
http://reasons.org/index.shtml

A Note From Dr. Hugh Ross
Dear Web Visitor,

Many in the secular society and the Christian community have operated under the untruth that science and faith are at odds with one another. The common response - we must either choose between them or keep them apart.

The mission of Reasons To Believe is to show that science and faith are, and always will be, allies, not enemies. Our mission is to bring that life-changing truth to as many people as possible, both believers and unbelievers.

Our message challenges atheists and agnostics to reconsider their worldview. We want to help skeptics find answers to those questions that bar them from entrusting their lives to Christ. And we want to help Christians find new joy and confidence in worshiping God as they shed their fear of science.

So, whether you are a skeptical inquirer, a new Christian, or one who has enjoyed a long relationship with the Lord, we look forward to providing you with materials that will keep you informed about up-to-the-minute discoveries in the sciences and how they harmonize with God's revelation in the words of the Bible.

It is our conviction that since the same God who "authored" the universe also inspired the writings of Scripture, a consistent message will come through both channels. In other words, the facts of nature will agree with, not contradict, the words of the Bible. We explore problems and propose resolutions in a variety of ways.

Please let us know how we can serve you. We look forward to a lasting relationship.

Sincerely,

Dr. Hugh Ross
Founder/President
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 21-Feb-2003 4:35pm  
I can never talk about logic because I never quite get what it's supposed to be. I always score high on logic tests and I know I have a logical, methodical mind, but beyond that....!

Btw, about teh other survey where we're having a discussion, I haven't visited it today because I'm expecting a long reply or two and I'm far too knackered to face them!!! Tomorrow  * smile *
BrightBlue
(reply to 2bfound) posted 21-Feb-2003 5:47pm  
You are perfectly welcome to be blind to the world and not accept views other than your own. In the long run, it really doesn't matter.
In fact, if you did a little research, instead of making foolish statements with no backing, you would find that relativism is not something I just made up.
Your absolutist faith tells you I'm wrong. I understand that. I have no problem with you thinking I'm wrong. You can do it all day, and it will still have no meaning to me. What you believe has no affect on me.
Never did I claim to know absolute truth. And, for that matter, NEITHER CAN YOU. You have no more knowledge of truth than any other person. You base your truth and your aggressive stance on a little black book and faith. I base mine on logic and faith. It's all about the same. The difference is that your religion causes wars. As much as you try, you cannot deny that. And why has christianity caused so many wars? Because no one wants to be told what to do by a bunch of mindless cultists who claim to have a hardline to god.
dora
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 21-Feb-2003 8:01pm  
The fact that you believe is not relevant at all.I don't need proof...I have a faith as much as you do,only my faith excludes the existance of God.
And I can't think about the truck hitting me because I'm so full of love for the humankind and nature and how much they can do by themselves. it brings me much joy and light.I don't have arguments.Faith is not something I like to explain with logic.Humans build the truck,I think they did the same with god.Yes,pride has much to do with it.They don't have enough.Pride is wonderful.Is with kindness and beauty what makes the world worth living.If you have your faith,and it helps you to be a better person,it's good...if not it's bad whatever that faith could be.Keep believing,but don't think everybody has to believe what you believe in.

TheseFacts
(reply to Biggles) posted 21-Feb-2003 9:31pm  
A vast majority of all scientific development has come out of western civilization, which has Christianity as its basis.
Copernicus, Galileo, Pascal, Isaac Newton, Carl Linnaeus, Johannes Keppler, Robert Boyle, Louis Pasteur, Jean Henri Fabre, Michael Faraday, John Ambrose Fleming, etc... These great scientists operated within a Christian framework.
Most likely, all science that you have learned throughout the years and the one that you neighbours and all people you've met and will meet is there for you to enjoy and learn from THANKS to the discoveries of a group of Christians!
dora
posted 21-Feb-2003 9:43pm  
Galileo

What about his process?

I DO think that Christianity shaped our civilization and we can't help to be influenced by Christianity.BUT Faith in Christ and Christianity as an historical thing are two different things.
TheseFacts
(reply to Biggles) posted 21-Feb-2003 10:31pm  
Come on Biggles, you are just another human being just like all of us here. We know that you are here reading this right now but you cannot be at this moment renting your favorite video.
You cannot be in not even two places at the same time.
In order for you to say that there is no God you must be in every place, have visited every star and galaxy and planet, black holes supernovas, molecules, under the water, every place at the same time to admit: "Ok guys, since I am omniscient and omnipresent, I have determined that there is no God"
On the other hand, how much knowledge can you have?, what is the size of the knowledge pool?
Do you know every word of all the books in your local library? What percentage of the collective knowledge recorded in the volumes in this library would you say are within your own pool of knowledge and experience? Maybe 1%?
Do you think that it could be logically possible that God may exist in the 99% of the rest of the knowledge that you don't know?
TheseFacts
posted 21-Feb-2003 11:41pm  
1_ Biggles says: "Design implies a designer and I certainly don't accept that concept."
:)
Things just started to evolve out of nothing...come on - Think friend :)
Something that does not exist cannot bring itself into existence (a logical absolute).

2_BrightBlue says: "What you believe has no affect on me."
:)
The fact that you are reading all these lines makes me believe that it does affect you. It affects all of us! If it does not "affect" you, it should!.
Your beliefs concern me. I want you to have eternal life with our Lord and Savior.
See my friends, there are ONLY two ways, for God or against Him.
Where would you like to spend eternity?
TheseFacts
posted 21-Feb-2003 11:52pm  
3_BrightBlue says: "...little black book..."
:) The Word of the Creator of the Universe is not a little black book. It gives you Wisdom, is the key of knowledge, it is all about JESUS. In case you don't know Him a little description: I quote from S.M. Lockridge's FACTUAL sermon...
"The Bible says my King is a seven-way king....He's the King of the Jews; that's a racial king....He's the King of Israel; that's a national King....He's the King of Righteousness....He's the King of the Ages.....He's the King of Heaven....He's the King of Glory....He's the King of kings, and He's the Lord of lords. That's my King. Well....I wonder, do you know Him?.... David said, "The Heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork. My King is a sovereign King. No means of measure can define His limitless love. No far seeing telescope can bring into visibility the coastline of His shoreless supply. No barrier can hinder Him from pouring out His blessings. He's enduringly strong....He's entirely sincere....He's eternally steadfast....He's immortally graceful....He's imperially powerful....He's impartially merciful....... Do you know Him?

He's the greatest phenomenon that ever crossed the horizon of this world. He's God's Son....He's a sinner's Saviour....He's the centerpiece of civilization....He stands in the solitude of Himself....He's awesome....He's unique....He's unparalleled....He's unprecedented....He's the loftiest idea in literature....He's the highest personality in philosophy....He's the supreme problem in higher criticism....He's the fundamental doctrine of true theology....He's the cardinal necessity of spiritual religion....He's the miracle of the age.... He's the superlative of everything good that you choose to call Him....He's the only one qualified to be an all sufficient Saviour...... I wonder if you know Him today?

He supplies strength for the weak....He's available for the tempted and the tried....He sympathizes and He saves....He strengthens and sustains....He guards and He guides....He heals the sick....He cleanses lepers....He forgives sinners....He discharges debtors....He delivers captives....He defends the feeble....He blesses the young....He serves the unfortunate....He regards the aged....He rewards the diligent....and He beautifies the meek....... I wonder if you know Him?

Well, my King....is the King....He's the key to knowledge....He's the wellspring to wisdom....He's the doorway of deliverance....He's the pathway of peace....He's the roadway of righteousness ....He's the highway of holiness....He's the gateway of glory....... Do you know Him?

Well....His office is manifold....His promise is sure....His light is matchless....His goodness is limitless....His mercy is everlasting....His love never changes....His word is enough....His grace is sufficient....His reign is righteous....and His yoke is easy, and his burden is light. I wish I could describe Him to you, but He's indescribable....He's incomprehensible....He's invincible....He's irresistible.

Well, you can't get Him out of your mind....You can't get Him off of your hand....You can't out live Him, and you can't live without Him....The Pharisees couldn't stand Him, but they found out they couldn't stop Him....Pilate couldn't find any fault in Him....The witnesses couldn't get their testimonies to agree....Herod couldn't kill Him....Death couldn't handle Him, and the grave couldn't hold Him. Yea!!!, that's my King, that's my King."

Ask Him from your heart, while in bed before resting tonight, Jesus, if you are real, if God exists, let me know, show me a clear sign, let me know you...
If you do not believe and are certain that it is just lies or fables, it would not hurt you to try would it?
It might change your life forever!


dora
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 22-Feb-2003 12:14am  
It would.It hurts my belief in man,sorry.
I love Pascal,sure,but I don't like betting at all.I'm certain as you are certain.I don't know,but I hope and believe is as I feel.
We all seen you believe in God.Good for you,now stop.You're not gonna converting people like that,do you? I cannot ask to someone I don't believe in.It's true I talk to myself in the shape of other people inside me,but I'm not mad and I know it's me and it's just for helping me (see what I said about prayer)...I can call one of them god if you want.But I won't.You seem to think the non-believer life is sad.Is not.For some doubters can be,and I hope they find their faith whatever that may be,but for me it isn't.I'm fine.If your god exists he will be fine without me as well I suppose,so it doesn't really worth the trouble.You can't give yourself faith,it comes.I don't want it,if it comes I won't refuse it but I'm 99% certain that it won't and really that makes me pretty happy.
I don't want your eternal life.I want eternal life through my books and music,and eternal life decomposing and having beautiful plants and flowers rise from my body and in the memory of my friends and loved ones.If they'd ask me to trade this for paradise I wouldn't.
dora
posted 22-Feb-2003 12:16am  
Wow! My last comment was kind of deep!

 * surprise *
(not that I do shallow comments usually  * wink * )
TheseFacts
(reply to BrightBlue) posted 22-Feb-2003 12:33am  
You say: "...The difference is that your religion causes wars. As much as you try, you cannot deny that. And why has christianity caused so many wars?"
:)
You cannot judge Christianity by its followers. You must go to the source -The bible. After you read it then I welcome your critics and judgments. People is not perfect, some are just "nominal Christians" just by name, they do not follow it, they don't do what Jesus did, non of us qualify, I don't for sure. He started to work on me and it is not finished yet. I will make lots of mistakes. You have to go to the source not the followers.
Php 1:6 "I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
TheseFacts
(reply to dora) posted 22-Feb-2003 1:00am  
You say: "You're not gonna converting people like that,do you?"
:)
I can't, I cannot convert anyone. He does. All you have to do is ASK. He'll do the work. I am not that powerful you know, I am just another person.

You say: "If your god exists he will be fine without me as well I suppose,so it doesn't really worth the trouble."
:)
He loves you more than you could even understand.
He wants you with Him, He created you, a monkey did not. His love is incomprehensible.

You say: "You can't give yourself faith,it comes..."
:)
You have one of the most powerful gift even given to you, the power of choice. I choose to believe, then I become a believer.
Faith is not traveling around town looking to see whom to get into like some kind of flying living thing looking for home.
You say: "I don't want your eternal life..."
:)
You have only two forms of eternal life. Which one you choose? No way out, weather you believe it or not it is there waiting for you. When you turn 89 1/2 or next week in the highway...

You say: "and eternal life decomposing and having beautiful plants and flowers rise from my body and in the memory of my friends and loved ones.If they'd ask me to trade this for paradise I wouldn't."
:)
Come on friend, What if it is true? You would enjoy the benefits of it. Or suffer the irrevocable reality...Someone said once "Abandon hope all ye whom enter here" No hope, no way out, come on friend He loves you and does not want you to enter there!
If if not true, you gain nothing.
TheseFacts
posted 22-Feb-2003 1:14am  
A paraphrased version of the "Wager of Pascal"
How can anyone lose who chooses to be a Christian? If when he dies, there turns out to be no God and his faith was in vain, he has lost nothing-in fact has being happier in life than his non believers friends. If however, there is a God and a heaven and hell then he has gained heaven and his skeptical friends will have lost everything in hell!
_____________________________________________
"'Come now, and let us reason together,' says the Lord" (Isaiah 1:18).
dora
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 22-Feb-2003 1:26am  
Oh!
I admire your faith,but please that's enough.You sound like a TV preacher sometimes!
If it's true...it's not true.Please stop it,it's not good anymore.Just annoying.Please have a bit of respect for my belief even if you don't share them.I'm not your friend,I don't even know you.
Benefits? Like what? Eternal beatitude?
I confirm and I won't trade my little natural death for paradise.Hell you say? To hell with hell.
I want to DIE!! Not now,I mean I want to be dead and peaceful and dead and dead and dead.I want my body to die,I want my soul to die.I hope it will.
HELL is a beautiful literary creation,as it is heaven.For me.I cannot speak for everybody,but some people think they can.I don't try to convert people to my light.Nope,you can't choose...what about grace? Well..that depends also on which kind of christian you are.You don't sound catholic,so for you grace must be the point...
and please stop preaching.I hate preaching from whatever point it comes...and also stop reminding me about my incoming death or something.Not very nice.I think about death (and life) enough as it is.
If it's true I will lose my pride.I know you christians think that's a sin,but I don't believe in sin and I think pride is good and healthy.Do I prefer pain to humiliation? Do I prefer being myself to adapting? Do I prefer standing on my grounds with the memory of how good I was even if I have to pay a fee? FUDGING YES!
You have it hard here...you don't have weak points to work on,I don't need your god.I don't.I'm now waiting for him.Sorry to be rude,but if you want to oppose strongly your truth with my truth I have to stick to my guns.
So this conversation ends here.Nice to talk to you because is always good to talk with people and exchange,but I guess we simply aren't on the same way.
dora
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 22-Feb-2003 1:27am  
he has lost nothing-in fact has being happier in life than his non believers friends.

Please explain.WHY?
That's the last thing,really.

I can follow the rest,even if I don't agree,but this is not true at all.
TheseFacts
(reply to dora) posted 22-Feb-2003 2:01am  
You seem to know some aspects of the Christian faith. That is good.
I know I do not know you, I call you friend because I like to make friends. No reason to apologize - Free Will they call it. You don't bother me at all, I like to share The Way with others.
Let us compare myself with myself so I don't offend the other non believers.
I did not have the peace that my God fills me with when I was not a believer.
My pride took me to many wrong places and situations -No pride no more.
My worries I give to Him, He comforts me and takes care of me. Before, I was worrying too much about too many things. Too much energy spent, no point.
His grace I do not deserve, I got and I am thankful.
Having Him in my heart makes me better than the way I used to be.
I would not change that for anything. No palace or riches or castles or anything can do. Nope.
Personal relationship is what I have with Him, I did not have a wonderful counselor before, an everlasting father nope, a friend forever? nope.
"Men [I add human race]were deceivers ever" Shakespeare used to say "one foot is sea and one on shore to one thing constant never..." He does not deceive me, He does not disappoint me, He is perfect, He puts my feet upon the SOLID ROCK not on the soft sand where I used to have them on, He gives me energy, gives me life, real light.
I am not better than you because I believe, I am better than myself (the way I used to be)
dora
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 22-Feb-2003 6:40am  
If faith turned you into a better man,that's good.Everything that makes you better and happier is good.

tobiqueriverrat
posted 22-Feb-2003 10:05am  
Only "Jesus" can save you,no other god can forgive sin.
MssAmericat
posted 22-Feb-2003 10:09am  
*all I type is typed in soft tones of the fingers*...
I feel I am better at giving my testimony in person/chat for then I am asked a question and I respond and it continues...I feel that some believe that Christians are supposed to be/act/speak perfect, but I am only saved by God's gift, his son Jesus Christ. I am no better as a whole than anyone else. I have trials, I am not always happy, full of joy, but the difference is no matter what, I lean on the true and only Physician/Scientist/Creator/Saviour of the world and with this truth my soul is at peace, no matter what "It is well with my soul". It is not a false peace I had when I thought I was a christian (Did some of ya'll think America is a "Christian" Nation? It's not and Christianity is not just for the white man, it's for every person). I also am human and have the right as anyone else to become angry, make mistakes, it is how I act on these and by not learning that I believe is hurtful to me and others, that is God gave us values and morals to live by and use the common sense he also gave us.
I had doubts and questions. Didn't know where to turn. In God's word I read John 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ". The Holy Spirit guided me to God's truth of salvation. No it wasn't thru my own self, going to church, being a good person. It's only thru the death and resurrection of God coming in the human form of man, Jesus Christ, only thru his blood am I able to live when this earthly body dies. I never understood any of this before and some of you wont have any idea of what I am saying, the only way is to seek and God will answer. I never knew what the song "Amazing Grace" truly meant until then, WOW!!!

What if "The Long Run" does matter? Yes we all have our own "beliefs", God gave us free will. Answers are given but they aren't mine they come from God.It is not up to me to convince one that God sent his Son to die on the cross for the world, or that he even exists, but to only tell . It isn't what makes me happy or what makes another happy, but that is up to God to show you his full truth. Arguments on this subject, until the world ends as we know it, will always be.
2bfound
(reply to BrightBlue) posted 22-Feb-2003 2:08pm  
Your conflict is not with me, its with the laws of logic and truth. that is why the Indian proverb goes "He who knows does not speak, he who speaks does not know".
Being that you claim to be a relativist: everything you said is wrong, you see I did not say you where wrong, you made yourself wrong by claiming truth to be relative and not absolute; so then your statement is by proxy not true but false.
I am not aware of any wars that christianity has caused, but if you would enlighten all of us here, we would be obliged.
My bible is burgandy  * smile *
2bfound
(reply to dora) posted 22-Feb-2003 2:21pm  
Fact is dora you came into this survey like all the people here who do not believe in Jesus Christ as God incarnate, seeking and searching.

Why would someone answer this survey and stick around if not because something in you longs to know the TRUE GOD.
Foolish statements of unknowable gods and faith so personal are but the soothing of itchy ears. If all here wanted not to discuss their faith or personal beliefs, they would not be here. Fact is no one wants to hear or confront that they are wrong.
If God has spoken, then heed His voice, but don't make up a god to suit yourself, that's the oldest sin in the book "idolatry".
Whether you believe in Christianity or not, it's irrelevant. All world views are not equal, so thus one is true and the rest are not.
Truth will always be absolute!

Ahhh, you may ask then how do I know I'm right???
Truth! * smile *
dora
(reply to 2bfound) posted 23-Feb-2003 1:51am  
Pleaaaseee!
I came into this survey because of people.I like people,I like to know how we are different and similar.God has nothing to do with it.But you wouldn't admit it.The difference is that I can admit that god (the idea of god) is what brought you here,but not me.
Or else next time we do a survey about Satan you will say that Satan brought me to the survey?
I DON'T LONG!
I find it so insulting.I would rather be considered an enemy,really...not some kind of lost sheep because I'm NOT.
You can't be so blind...oh okay you can.I don't have time for fanatics,sorry,I don't care if their religion is science or god.
Please leave me alone.
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 23-Feb-2003 8:58am  
"A vast majority of all scientific development has come out of western civilization, which has Christianity as its basis."

Hmm, not entirely true to start off with, but even so, so what?

As for who ought to be proving what, I've explained the philosophy behind that. Actually counter that, or counter nothing.

"1_ Biggles says: "Design implies a designer and I certainly don't accept that concept."
:)
Things just started to evolve out of nothing...come on - Think friend :)
Something that does not exist cannot bring itself into existence (a logical absolute)."

I'm not your friend. You haven't given me any reason yet to disbelieve what I currently hold to be true. I find the concept of a God existing before anything else, even more ridiculous than the concept of nothing existing and then the universe existing. Where did God exist? How could anything exist without time?
TheseFacts
(reply to Biggles) posted 23-Feb-2003 3:08pm  
_ Biggles says: "I'm not your friend. You haven't given me any reason yet to disbelieve what I currently hold to be true."
:)
It sounds to me like you are looking for something deeper and with more sense than what you believe (weather you believe it or not you sounds like that and I invite others to read your statement and give an input on it)
Yes you are holding your own true, the one you feel comfortable with. God's Truth, the only Truth sometimes is convicting, it takes us out of our comfort zone but that is ok, it makes us better people, it saves us, it refreshes our hearts, it gives us peace, it makes us grow. I love His word, it transform me for better.
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 23-Feb-2003 3:51pm  
I question but you have no answers. 2bfound at least responds fairly. Learn to do the same and we will discuss these things.
pandora
posted 23-Feb-2003 4:28pm  
Not one single bit. I was involved in a very fundamentalist church for a few months, and it pretty much confirmed my life-long belief that religion is the opiate of the masses. Although, no offense to the religious on the board.
2bfound
(reply to dora) posted 23-Feb-2003 9:40pm  
Yes I am here because of God, but not an idea of God. What is an idea? ideas have been wrong before.
You decieve yourself in believing you came here to answer a survey about Jesus, for the love of people. You could have very well gone to any chat room out there or even answered another survey, but your denial and pride cannot let you see your longing and need for the savior.
As I read your posts here the last thing I gather is your "love". You want to know about Jesus, you want to know about God; you like all of us here need a savior, for there is no one good, says the word of God.
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 23-Feb-2003 9:54pm  
You must admit that it is well known that time, space and matter all had a beginning. This is why we have the big bang theories. With the study of men like Hawkins, probably the greatest theoretical physicist since Einstein. We know all had a beginning in time. We however cannot find what was before that.... God?
God is not bound by physical properties, time, space, matter, etc. All those properties are what we are bound by and therefore we assume that God is also. God exists outside of time. He (God) says as much when the bible states:
"it is He who inhabits eternity"

You must admit friend, that the greatest scientist, cosmologist, and physicist see design in the universe. Consider Paul Davis' admission when he wrote that, implicit in the world and even in the universe there is a sense of design that even he does not know how it could have come about without a designer.

dora
(reply to 2bfound) posted 23-Feb-2003 11:44pm  
You kill my love.
That's enough.No filter but no more words between us.
TheseFacts
(reply to Biggles) posted 24-Feb-2003 2:03am  
Oops I think I reply to you on the other survey by mistake :)
_______________________________
Here:

Biggles say: "You have given me a lot of opinion, I haven't seen any facts."
:)
What facts do you want?, God's or Evidences that Evolution is Biologically impossible?
I must write my disclaimer again though: I can present many evidences to you as the ones presented to you by some here, by if your heart is hardened you will not see the Truth. Christianity is a heart style.
Biggles say: "Where on earth did you get the "1 in 57 with 800 zeros to the right"?"
:)
I'll give you the link again: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/217.asp
I do not mean to bother you, but since you think I made up the number with 800 zeros, here, take a look at this:
"Life was designed. It did not evolve. The certainty of these conclusions is 104,478,296 (1 followed by 4,478,296 zeros) to one." I do not want you to get bored with these facts, but I'll give you the site if you want me to :)

Biggles say: "Where did God exist?"
:)
Everywhere, always. What do you mean? What is your question? Can you elaborate?
God is eternal that means always He has, according to the meaning of eternal (Webster), infinite duration. Something eternal is valid or existing at all times (Webster).
The universe began to exist and it was created from nothing! Science has demonstrated that. If you want I can give you the references from, for instance, the Cambridge astronomer Fred Hoyle.
God created it, the eternal God did. You might say, well so who created God? NOBODY! He is eternal. The who created God question will become and absurd when you start asking who created the god that created God, etc... It becomes what they call an infinite regression. NO SENSE!
So God, the forever and ever, the always existent, existed always outside and inside of our limited space time boundaries. Or He was always there here everywhere. Some woman told a teacher or preacher, I am afraid that my son will not understand the fact that God has been always there, eternal. The teacher or preacher said: Don't worry, your son will still not understand it when he turns 60. We cannot get it, none of us, it does not really make sense. Our limited minds, our small capacity of knowledge cannot even understand really the meaning of something that is eternal. That is why "we" come up with all these stories about the origen of species, mutations and all that fantasy that really adapts to our limited little brains.

How could anything exist without time?

We do not get it, we cannot understand that God inhabits eternity. We know time as a linear dimension with beginning and end.
Imagine you are in Daytona Beach florida, at the bottom seats, right there in front of the track. You will only see the race cars going in front of you, actually you will see them passing so fast that they even look a bit blurry. But if you sit at the highest seat, you can see the whole track, from beginning to end, you know your favorite car's position in the track at any given time. God is seated outside of this linear (beginning to end) time, He inhabits that area whatever its name is. Not only that, He also comes in and goes out of it as He pleases, and this is another fact!
2bfound
(reply to dora) posted 24-Feb-2003 6:26am  
Oh, come on dora, where is the love?
Is it conviction? Truth that has found you out?
What is the fear? I know why you are here, you know why you are here. We all know all of the non-theist are here for the same reason, TO HEAR ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN GOD! all can deny it with indignation and fanfare, but we know better.
You can read on, then... * wink *
2bfound
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 25-Feb-2003 9:05am  
Hey, my friend I know what you are speaking about. If you remember in the scopes trial two experts were brought in that sealed the fate of the evolutionary proponents.

N. Chandra Wickramasinghe a renowned mathematician and Sir Fred Hoyle a physicist. They ran through scenarios and probability charts; I believe the trial really was over when they testified.

I like a quote from that great 20th century satirist G.K. Chesterton, curiously he was writing over 20 years ago, is it not so true for our time?

You are free in our time to say that God does not exist.
You are free to say that He exists and is evil; you are free to say like poor Renault, that He would like to exist if He could.
You may talk of God as a mystification or a metaphor. You may boil Him down with gallons of long words or down to the rags of meta-physics; and its not merely that nobody punishes, but nobody protests.
But if you speak of God as a thing like a tiger, as a reason for changing one’s conduct, then the modern world will stop you somehow, if it can.
We are long past talking about whether an unbeliever should be punished for being irreverent; it is now thought irreverent to be a believer.

G.K. Chesterton

Boaz
posted 25-Feb-2003 11:18am  
It is only natural that an unbeliever would be in opposition to the Biblical message of the gospel. It' s irrelevant to them and the Bible says it will be.

1 Corinthians 1:18-24
18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.

24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

God has a method He chose to save people. He chose "the foolishness of preaching." (Verse 21) He calls preachers to carry the gospel just as He called His disciples. There are several man made methods of "evangelization" in the world today. I see many attempts made on the Internet to "lead people to Christ," etc. These attempts turn into harsh arguments that only drive people away from the truth.

The Apostle Paul likened his efforts to planting seeds. There was division in the Corinthian Church. One said they were of Paul, another would say they were of Apollos. This is worldy thinking or reasoning. (1 Corinthians 3:3-4) Paul went on to say: 1 Corinthians 3:5 "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man. 6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, heither he that watereth; but God that gave the increase.

Jesus also used the same analogy in the Parable of the Sower. (Matthew 13:1-23) Therefore, someone coming to saving faith is not the result of arguments and leading someone in the "sinners prayer." Saving faith is the result of a process. Planting good seed, watering that seed, keeping the weeds out of the planting, etc. If a person is not willing to subject their heart to God's method of saving sinners they have rejected His grace. It is impossible to "force" the seed to bring forth fruit. That is the work of God through His Holy Spirit.

We can compare this to planting a garden. We can't force the seed to come up and give fruit; it is a work of the Almighty. It takes the power of God to give life to the seed. A preacher is a gardener and so should all Christians be. Every Christian has their work in the garden. Everybody is not a planter or a watering person. Some people have to use the hoe to keep the weeds out. Some people have to shoo the dirty birds off. Some people have to help keep the seed from being choked out. Whatever the job should be, speak the truth in love and expect rejection. (Ephesians 4:15)
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 25-Feb-2003 11:42am  
OK, I've done it again. In my surreal day I'm having a lot of trouble concentrating. Give me a nod, and I'll read this later!

Sorry about this. My mind's all up in the air.
TheseFacts
(reply to 2bfound) posted 25-Feb-2003 11:44am  
That is so true.
I think "our" problem is exactly that. We want to fight change. "We" are too selfish, prideful. "We" are (sometimes) afraid of change, when our conscience tells us we are WRONG!!. When "my" conduct is on the spot or challenged by the word of God "I" will scream and try to shut "your" mouth because "I" (there it is again I, I, I) do not like what "you" are saying, or what God says about me.
2bfound
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 25-Feb-2003 12:08pm  
I think you summed it up, my friend.
2bfound
(reply to Boaz) posted 25-Feb-2003 12:33pm  
Yes, friend you are correct, coercion is not going to make a Christian. But as you know many people will never step in to a church to hear the word of God and so many times the church must go to them.
Many here are by their own impression, intellectuals and so that is their obstacle.
Let's remember then what God said through Isaiah.

"Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.

Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Paul tells Titus, these are the only two times you should engage people, "in season and out of season"  * wink *

endure my brother and hold the line. And remember, good answers must be proclaimed if for no other reason than, that bad questions are out there.
ldw
posted 25-Feb-2003 2:44pm  
When I created this survey, I knew it was going to stir things up. I was hoping for less bashing and more understanding, but at least we have some folks involved. I know by looking around, that God is real. Not only can I see it, I feel him in my heart.
My Mom has a brain tumor. She's had this tumor for one year and 6 months. She just had a good update on her MRI and doesn't have to go back till August. While I was waiting for the verdict on her test, I had such peace with me. Whether it was good or bad news, I knew the Lord was with me and Mom. I also know if it wasn't for his will, she wouldn't of made it this far. Yes, the radiologist, surgeons, and all have been great, but they are great through the Lord. I just want everyone to feel the things I feel.
silas
posted 25-Feb-2003 3:31pm  
No, unless he was alive, a great swimmer and I was drowning.
Boaz
(reply to 2bfound) posted 25-Feb-2003 4:28pm  
I'm a firm believer in following the scriptural method for reaching the lost with the gospel. We are saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. (Romans 10:17) The way God chose to deliver the Word was through preachers. Romans 10:13-15 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things."

The Apostle Peter brought the first Spirit filled gospel message to those in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:14-41) The Jerusalem Church grew rapidly, so much so, that Peter and the other eleven Apostles called the church together and told them to choose out 7 men of honest report, full of the Holy Spirit. These seven were to be deacons, they were to take care of the affairs of the church. These men were ordained by the Apostles praying for them and laying hands upon them. Some of these men preached, Stephen and Philip are two that are named. (Stephen, Acts 6:8-7:60) (Philip, Acts 8:5-13 & Acts 8:26-40)

In Acts 13:1-5 the Church at Antioch was told by the Holy Spirit to separate Barnabas and Saul (Paul) for the work He had called them into. Acts 13:3 "And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away." The Lord gave certain gifts to the church and each fills his own office. Ephesians 4:11-15 "And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelist; and some, pastors and teachers; 12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge to the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.

Speaking of these gifts in his 1st letter to the Corinthians Paul said, "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord."(1 Corinthians 12:4-5) He continues to expound on these gifts and in verse 14 he says, "For the body is not one member, but many." He speaks of the value of each member and their function in the body. He says in verse 27 "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." He emphasizes the difference in these offices and gifts and he asks, "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Etceteras…

I believe in a divine call and the giving of divine gifts for the furtherance and advancement of the cause of Christ. Anyone who has that credential I say more power to them. But, I believe we need to examine ourselves and know for a surety that we have that specific call.

I'm also a firm believer in keeping scripture in context. The portion of the verse "Come now, and let us reason together" in its' context is speaking to backslidden Israel. They had lapsed into religious ritual and their religious acts was vain and an abomination unto the Lord. (Isaiah 1:13) This would be better applied to professing Christianity today who are just going through religious motions and their heart is really turned away from the Lord.

Also the quote from 2 Timothy 4:2-4 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lust shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." This is Paul's charge to Timothy and any other preacher that the Lord our God might call down through time. This is also a case of Paul warning Timothy of the backsliding Christian in the last days. The epistles to Timothy and Titus are "Pastoral Epistles." They are instructions for pastors concerning the needs of their flocks.

I believe that people who profess to be Christian, or a Christian Preacher, when they are teaching heresy should be reproved and /or rebuked. Those that mix anything with the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary are to be confronted with the truth. (Titus 1:9-16) Even that should not be an ongoing argument. Titus 3:9-11 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

I've learned that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first and also the Greek. (Romans 1:16) If the Lord doesn't take that and prick the unbeliever's heart, then no amount of debate will do the work.

In Christian love,
Boaz
2bfound
(reply to Boaz) posted 26-Feb-2003 6:56am  
I have to respectfully disagree with you my brother. I will take the position of Paul:

While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17 So he REASONED in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to DISPUTE with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. AC 17:16-18 NIV

I read in the word Paul reasoned everywhere he went, sometimes stirring a crowd, but to the naive evangelist that believes that they just need to shout out a verse in a crowd and people will fall to their knees, I'd say they are in for a disappointment. No, friend I see reasoning people reason.

Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks AC 18:4

They arrived at Ephesus, where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews. AC 18:19

I did not come into this survey to debate hermeneutics with the brethren; I would suggest to you my brother that if it concerns you in the manner in which faith is discussed here, do not read on as you might be offended the longer.

Thank you for your concern, brother and as Peter encouraged, stand fast in the faith.
Boaz
(reply to 2bfound) posted 26-Feb-2003 12:00pm  
Quote:
" I will take the position of Paul:"

Question:
Do you have the credentials of Paul? Do you have a divine call and a divine gift?

Quote:
" So he REASONED in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there."

Paul REASONED with these people from the scriptures. 2bfound, you have made very little reference from the scriptures with these unbelievers. (Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.) I've noticed that you have referred to multiple famous scientist, mathematicians and philosophers, but you have not given these people very much BIBLE. Nearly all your Bible references have been to believers, and some of that has been taken out of context.

These Epicureans and Stoicks encountered by Paul (Acts 17:18) brought Paul to Areopagus and REQUESTED that he speak to them about his preaching of Jesus and the resurrection. Paul took advantage of an altar these people had erected to THE UNKNOWN GOD. After he made reference to this altar he began to preach and teach them about God, and that they should seek the Lord "if haply they might feel after him, and find him." He taught them that they should repent. (V. 30) He warned them of judgement and that God had raised Jesus from the dead. (V. 31) Paul did not refer to or quote any source other than the Bible. Verse 33 says, "So Paul departed from among them." He didn't continue to bash them with hopes of converting them. Verse 34 shows that Paul's preaching had an effect on some, but not all. He presented the truth in love and left the results in God's hands. (Planted the seed.)

As far as Paul reasoning with the Jews in the synagogue, their discourse was centered on the Word of God. The Jews were clinging to the Law and Moses and Paul had a desire to show them that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law.

Paul's method of reaching unbelievers always rested on the power of God not his wisdom, the wisdom of men, or the logic of men. 1 Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: Not with WISDOM OF WORDS, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

1 Corinthians 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

1 Corinthians 2:1 "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. (This is the Apostle Paul's self description.) 4. And my speech and my preaching was not with ENTICING WORDS OF MAN'S WISDOM, but in DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER. 5. THAT YOUR FAITH SHOULD NOT STAND IN THE WISDOM OF MEN, BUT IN THE POWER OF GOD.

Corinth was a very sophisticated city with many different gods. Paul did not use the wisdom of human argument to convert lost people in Corinth.

Quote: (From 2bfound)
"…, but to the naive evangelist that believes that they just need to shout out a verse in a crowd and people will fall to their knees, I'd say they are in for a disappointment."

2bfound, that is an insult to me, and more importantly, an insult to the Word of God and the power of God. Moreover, it is in direct contradiction to what Paul wrote. Yet you say you are taking his position. If unbelievers want some scientific evidences of the divine creator, Christians should direct them to a place where there are scientist who have researched these things and have scientific explanations. I'm not a scientist, but I am a preacher, and a God called preacher at that.


Quote: (A request from dora to 2bfound.)
"Please leave me alone."

Quote: (2bfound's reply to dora.)
"Yes I am here because of God, but not an idea of God. What is an idea? ideas have been wrong before.
You decieve yourself in believing you came here to answer a survey about Jesus, for the love of people. You could have very well gone to any chat room out there or even answered another survey, but your denial and pride cannot let you see your longing and need for the savior.
As I read your posts here the last thing I gather is your "love". You want to know about Jesus, you want to know about God; you like all of us here need a savior, for there is no one good, says the word of God."

Quote: (Dora replies to 2bfound)
"You kill my love.
That's enough.No filter but no more words between us."

Quote: (2bfound to dora.)
" Oh, come on dora, where is the love?
Is it conviction? Truth that has found you out?
What is the fear? I know why you are here, you know why you are here. We all know all of the non-theist are here for the same reason, TO HEAR ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN GOD! all can deny it with indignation and fanfare, but we know better.
You can read on, then..."

What did you accomplish here with Dora 2bfound? You drove her farther away from Christ and Christianity. Not only that, but you came across as being smug about it. Your attitude comes across as if Dora is another notch in your gun handle. If that's the way you mean it, that is not the Christian attitude (Spirit) to have.

Quote: (Directed to me.)
"I did not come into this survey to debate hermeneutics with the brethren; I would suggest to you my brother that if it concerns you in the manner in which faith is discussed here, do not read on as you might be offended the longer."

I would suggest to you that you examine what you are doing and whether it's hurting the cause, or helping the cause of Christ. Or maybe it's just fulfilling your ego. Jesus loves these people just as much as He loves you and/or me. He died for all and was raised the third day, victorious over death and hell. He now sits at the right hand of the Father and He holds the keys of death and hell. He left a church here to carry the gospel to the entire world. He left us His Word that shows us the method He chose to save sinners. I choose to follow it!


In Christian love,
Boaz

Proverbs 12:1
I am now silent.
2bfound
(reply to Boaz) posted 26-Feb-2003 12:52pm  
Well, thank you very much for that little bible study and your statement of faith. You know, everywhere there always has to be a little pharisee, that filters every word said through his little legalist lens, checking for the konine Greek and Hebrew, to see if they measure up.

What I find interesting is that you wont engage anyone here for Christ so as to not get into an arguement; But you will engage the believer for an arguement.
Let me then check my credentials with you, your imminence, that I may find myself worthy of your approval.

I will leave you to your own devices, and may I close with this quote and a suggestion, "get your head out of your bible, long enough to reach the post-modern mind.

Unfortunately in contrast, the questions of today's average young person, who is the product of America's intellectual bastions, have been virtually left unaddressed by the church. There is a danger when we give young people only a catalogue of do's and don'ts. So in these young minds, the gospel is not intellectually credible.
-Dr. Ravi Zacharias
cephas
(reply to Boaz) posted 26-Feb-2003 4:21pm  
Man, who are you?
What is your authority? All I have read from you is:
"I'm a firm believer in following the scriptural method"

"I believe in a divine call and the giving of divine gifts "
"I'm also a firm believer in keeping scripture in context"
"I believe that people who profess to be Christian"

Again who are you? Tell us about your authority. All I've read from you is "I I I" who is asking you what you believe?
I don't think 2bfound has done anything wrong,2bfound is challenging people to think.
You on the other hand have been ignored from your earlier posts.
How does it look to have a Christian attack another here?
You want to talk credentials? Go ahead ask me for mine, I can tell you where I went to school and under who!
You are nothing but a jerk.
Boaz
(reply to 2bfound) posted 26-Feb-2003 4:24pm  
My first post on this thread is the first time I've ever been to surveycentral.

Just for the sake of clarity. F.Y.I.
2bfound
(reply to cephas) posted 26-Feb-2003 4:27pm  
Hey, friend don't engage the types of these.
And certainly don't get into an argument that can only deteriorate. Let it roll of, go on.

2bfound
(reply to Boaz) posted 26-Feb-2003 4:29pm  
Proverbs 12:1
I am now silent

So much for being silent... * wink *
cephas
(reply to 2bfound) posted 26-Feb-2003 4:35pm  
True. Hey I like that quote from Zacharias, do you listen to him?
I also liked that quote from G.K. Chesterton, I thought nobody quoted from him anymore; I doubt many know of him.
Like your apologetics, where did you go to seminary?
Boaz
(reply to 2bfound) posted 26-Feb-2003 4:52pm  
I only replied to clarify that I have never been to this site before. I didn't engage you concerning any of your slander. I'm silent on the subject. Let the Bible speak.

Have a good day.
2bfound
(reply to cephas) posted 26-Feb-2003 10:18pm  
Yes, friend I have many of Ravi's articles and material. Several of his books also. I have a few tapes of his address at MIT and Harvard with William Lane Craig, brilliant presentation.\

Chesterton was truly ahead of his time. Chesterton and Muggeridge are in my opinion the most important writers of the 20th century.

Well friend seeing that my friend Biggles is now gone, I see no reason to stay here, unless I get lynched by the heresy hunters here. I don't have the patience for them, I suggest you follow.
Till the whole world hears, hold the line.  * smile *
TheseFacts
posted 27-Feb-2003 1:35am  
My friends "Come now, and let us reason together". Why are we all here? I challenge all of the Christians, "lukewarms" and non Christians to reveal to all of us why are you here.
We have "talked" a lot about the facts of the True word of God and the other information also.
I think most of us are very clear about the fact that God wants to save us through His son Jesus.
I hope that all of you are familiar with the fact that Jesus changes one's life for better and it gives you the key to spend eternity with Him and the Father in heaven.
We also know the some of you think that we evolved from the monkey and that there is no God.
But why are you here? What is so interesting about writing to other people in a survey place that is titled "Do you believe in being saved by Jesus Christ".
Could it be that all of us want to know a bit more about this Jesus? or what is Christianity all about?
Or maybe, to some, something bad happened in the past and we blame the God and cannot stand these Jesus' followers?
What is in your heart people? Nobody is watching you, write deep stuff. Open your heart to a "Let us reason together" about deeper things.
Are you a happy person?
Are you a good person? What makes you think that you are good?

YOUR THOUGHTS MAN what is the meaning of that?
Is your brain the one that originates the thoughts or YOU?, yes you behind those eyes that read this.
Where do the creator of your thoughts (YOU) go when you die?
Think of these:
All the animals in the oceans, the night creatures in the very deep oceans with their own lighting system.
The amazing mountains, the clouds, the circle of the earth floating in space, God was at His best when created all this, well maybe not.
Perhaps, well, remember electricity? Like charges repel and opposite charges attract. The atom has many protons (+ charge) and neutrons in the very center, and around it many electrons (- charge). Scientists know that "the strong force" is a force which attracts protons to protons, neutrons to neutrons, and protons and neutrons to each other BUT protons REPEL protons, the strong force must be stronger that the electrical force.They do not know where that force comes from, all they know is that is very strong. Maybe God did His best there by holding all things together, or maybe not.
Betelgeuse (the star) is more than 1000 times larger than the Sun, and 50000 times as luminous, we can fit 1,300,000 (OVER ONE MILLION) earths inside the sun! How big that is? Star enumerators located on the Web offer numbers ranging from more than 200 billion stars in our galaxy to 3 thousand million billion stars (3 followed by 16 zeroes), in the universe. NASA alleges there are zillions of uncountable stars.
He planned that vast universe, brought it into being, set each star and planet in its own exact place, and started the myriad heavenly bodies coursing through space, each in its prescribed orbit, in its orderly precision...How vast, what a perfect artistic creation that is, maybe God did His best while creating the stars or maybe not?
Ahh, the amazing human eye, The light sensitive cells of the retina are like an extremely complex high gain amplifier. There are over 10 million such cells in the retina and they are packed together with a density of 200,000 (per millimeter) in the highly sensitive fovea. These photoreceptor cells have a very high rate of metabolism and must completely replace themselves about every 7 days!, Yep, God did His best when creating the human eye, no doubt about it, or maybe not?
I tell you the truth my friend, God did His best when He entered into my heart. Nothing compares to that. No argument, no angry unbeliever, no lukewarm Christian, no friendly unbeliever.
Men, women, open your heart, He is perfect, we are not, our sins, the transgression of The Law (the 10 commandments) , is what separates us from Him, there is a gap there. We cannot make it by The Law alone (everybody brakes The Law), the law reminds us that we need Him, only Jesus is the bridge over that gap to reach the Creator of all things mentioned above and the ones we don't even think about. Man, I can wait to see His face. Imagine, seeing the face of the One that created all these things? How much wisdom that is? What if all this is true? Don't you wonder? I did.
I tell you the truth in REAL Christian love, I cannot by silent! I gotta tell you about these things. I like saying these things, I love telling you these things, I am commanded to tell you these things. Who's got "ears" to "hear" this? -eyes to read?
ldw
posted 6-Mar-2003 9:16am  
I guess telling someone they are a jerk, is the Christian way?? Please stop!!!!!!!!!
MssAmericat
(reply to ldw) posted 6-Mar-2003 3:51pm  
I am sure you know that Christians get upset, get our feelings hurt, become angry etc.
Some ppl would say that calling another a jerk is not a bad word. For me I prefer to tell someone they are "acting" like one not that they are one but again as humans we all can loose our cool and not realize we may need to say we're sorry if we have offended another even tho we still may believe we are in the right. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" Matthew 26:41 & Galatians 5:17

I re-read all the posts and would praise God for your mother's good news and for the peace given to you no matter what is to happen, I agree that no matter what "It is well with my soul".
2bfound
posted 7-Mar-2003 10:54am  
” The danger of a man not believing in God is not that he ends up believing in nothing, alas, it’s much worse. The danger of a man not believing in God is that he will end up believing in anything.”

-G.K. Chesterton
ldw
posted 7-Mar-2003 11:41am  
Yes I realize Christians are only human, so we get ill, just like anyone else. I just think there is a time and place for lots of things and this is Not the situation
anonymous
posted 7-Mar-2003 1:28pm  
The answer is yes you can be saved through Jesus Christ. Now, before I go further; I do not desire any responses or discussion. This is my opinion and belief, and, we as humans are entitled to nothing else but beliefs. I will say, that as someone who FEELS he has been enlightened (if you want to choose a label, but that is another subject), I will say that Jesus Christ was a redeeming prophet whose legacy was decimated by the false prophet of Anti-Christ(A church I will not mention. As a result of this gross misrecorded information about Jesus and his purpose, he has been magnified to a status of deity that far surpasses God in the so-called Christian religion. Now, you have to ask yourself. Would you truly believe that Jesus, knowing his creator, would elevate himself to a status that surpasses his known creator? And, if you were that creator, knowing that your adversary concocted a scheme to use a central figure in your attempt to alleviate man's anxiety; and they (not he.....meaning ...I'll use the name satan)turned that central figure's legacy into a false religion to be used as a weapon of mass destruction, possibly take offense to that tactic, and be a little perturbed. Now, I know some of those reading this will immediately make a false attribution that I am probably a "Jehovah's Witness", or maybe some other label; although any label would be incorrect. This is a topic that you need to study if you don't accept my words; and i tell you .....don't....study for yourself, because despite some enlightened people's believe, nobody gives you information concerning supernatural matters. We have to study, meditate, and come to our own conclusions concerning this matter; and I would bet that we are probably judged(or graded possibly) on how much truth we are able to uncover. You are privy, as a human with an unbelievably powerful brain, to uncover ALL earthy truths. The important condition, however, is that you discard your whole belief system, and become as Christ said "like a child". This is the true meaning of being re-born. Re-education and re-shaping of your entire belief system.
To answer the question, I would say that elevating Christ(as it pertains to his human experience) to the deity status that surpasses his creator, would be identical to worshipping a false prophet or God, which will lead to your eventual spiritual(another label) death.
Again, those reading this that have an emotional response to this please do not respond; as I have no desire to debate(debate causes anxiety in humans, and we have enough of this disease prevalent already. I respect others' opinions, however, I will not debate them. Please search, ask for the guidance to help YOU figure it out, because you have to do the work, they don't just give out that(supernatural) information. I believe.....lol .......and I'm pretty sure that I am correct in the things that pertain to the human experience.
2bfound
(reply to anonymous) posted 7-Mar-2003 2:23pm  
Wow...what a bunch of nonsense.
There is no debate, there is not even an argument.
linny21
posted 8-Mar-2003 6:47pm  
I don't know.
MssAmericat
(reply to ldw) posted 10-Mar-2003 11:07pm  
Oh hey  * grin * ....I didn't realize you had replied to me for it didn't come to me...
I feel you still maybe didn't understand my msg...Yes I agree that this isn't the place, what place is you know?!... "but"...because we can loose are control of speech it will happen and sometimes we then have to try not to revert to that level or let it really bother us, for is it really worth it? I will say that it was very honorable of you to come to the other's defense. * smile *
MssAmericat
posted 10-Mar-2003 11:14pm  
Ok anonymous doesn't want us to reply to them but, I have to comment that I have no clue to what this person was trying to convey * ! * * huh? * I know they said about searching but I would have no idea where to start  * wry smile *
Just makes me wonder why if you are anonymous why not come back and explain/debate/discuss...oh well.

Psalm 18:28
"For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness."


TheseFacts
posted 11-Mar-2003 2:57am  
"The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine."

Vera Kistiakowsky
(MIT physicist)
2bfound
posted 11-Mar-2003 8:06am  
Earth’s crammed with heaven,
And every common bush afire with God;
But only he who sees takes off his shoes;
The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries.


-Elizabeth Barrett Browning






MssAmericat
(reply to 2bfound) posted 11-Mar-2003 8:17am  
How lovely!
2bfound
(reply to MssAmericat) posted 11-Mar-2003 8:44am  
It is a gripping poem, she captured the truth so incredibly  * smile *
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 11-Mar-2003 11:58am  
I'm afraid I've thorougly lost the thread of this debate!!! It took me too long to get back to it.....

Just noticed you quoting GK Chesterton up there. Do you know his poem The Donkey? I love that  * smile *
2bfound
(reply to 2bfound) posted 11-Mar-2003 3:04pm  
I have two of his books, "orthodoxy" and "everlasting man". He was brilliant.
MssAmericat
(reply to 2bfound) posted 11-Mar-2003 5:47pm  
Yes, also the heart cross was a sweet touch  * smile *
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 12-Mar-2003 9:11am  
I'm sorry, that above post about Chesterton was for you.  * frown *
ldw
posted 12-Mar-2003 10:52am  
This doesn't have to be a debate. The question of the whole survey is do any of you out there reading this post, believe the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ can come into your heart and make you feel whole and let you know you are going to heaven and all is going to be alright and all is forgiven and make U a new person.
Thats what I meant by being saved. Its spiritual. Its a feeling, thats hard to explain, its the BEST!
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 12-Mar-2003 10:54am  
I haven't read any of his books - just his poetry. His books always look a bit preachy to me.
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 13-Mar-2003 1:13pm  
I would not say preachy, although I'm not sure what that means exactly, but if by that you mean very religious, then yes.
Orthodoxy is a defense of the Christian faith, and the everlasting man is a look at man through time and his longing for something, found of course in Jesus Christ and only in Him.
TheseFacts
posted 20-Mar-2003 9:26pm  
Paul Davies (British astrophysicist):"There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".
Davies, P. 1988. The Cosmic Blueprint: New Discoveries in Nature's Creative Ability To Order the Universe. New York: Simon and Schuster, p.203.
TheseFacts
posted 20-Mar-2003 10:43pm  
Borrowed from "SCIENTIFIC FACTS"
Ray Comfort Chapter I page 11
TheseFacts
posted 24-Mar-2003 10:56am  

"The Bible is no mere book, but a Living Creature, with a power that conquers all that oppose it...I never omit to read it, and every day with new pleasure."
Napoleon Bonaparte
anonymous
posted 24-Mar-2003 10:32pm  
Any student of the Truth realizes that there was a huge error made in the telling of the story of Jesus(pbuh). He was a prophet of God who was put to death as a sorcerer by the Romans and Jews. God replaced him with another and lifted him before he died. They freaked and invented a cover-up that would rival any today. No historical record? Flaveus Josephus, a Roman and known hater of Jesus's followers, would publish a story calling him the son of God. He's the Son of man, just as he said. He had the ability to forgive sins on earth, but his authority went no further. He consistently denied that he was equal to the Father, and the Holy Spirit was already here from the beginning, so is there now two?.......seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened.....He isn't opening it and throwing out free salvation. It's not consistent with scripture (ALL) and wreaks of a cover-up. Put your faith in God. Amazing things happen, like Truth if you search for it. Peace
anonymous
posted 24-Mar-2003 10:34pm  
When Jesus said we must be "born again". I think he meant it literally.
2bfound
(reply to anonymous) posted 25-Mar-2003 1:23pm  
ANONYMOUS#6

You are about as lost as anyone could be when it comes to scripture and Christ.
11 men take the body of a dead Jesus and then like fools go to their deaths for a lie??? I don't think so; one person maybe, two even but all of them, not likely.
Jesus, claims many times to be God, the son of God and equal to the Father. Jesus while being tempted in the desert by satan says "Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve." Notice Jesus said worship the Lord your God and Him only! He them receives and accepts worship Himself (Matt 8:2, Matt 9:18, Matt 14:33, Mark 5:6, John 9:38)
Just a few examples, for your enlightenment.  * smile *
pandora
(reply to 2bfound) posted 25-Mar-2003 2:24pm  
What about the fact that there are plenty of people who have died for religions that aren't christian? Death for a cause doesn't equal the cause being true.
TheseFacts
(reply to anonymous) posted 25-Mar-2003 2:40pm  
Anonymous #6: It does not matter how many man [human race] out there try and try to go against the living word of God. It was it is and it will be always the TRUTH. Weather you believe it or not the TRUTH is always there for you to accept it or reject it.
1Th 2:13 And for this cause we thank God without ceasing, that when you received the Word of hearing, of God, you welcomed it as the Word of God, not as a word of men, but as it is, truly the Word of God, which also effectually works in you who believe.
There are no surviving Roman records of the First Century that refer to, nor are there any Jewish records that support the accounts in the Christian gospels --- except one.

In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had
foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)
Yet this account has been embroiled in controversy since the 17th century. It could not have been written by a Jewish man, say the critics, because it
sounds too Christian: it even claims that Jesus was the Messiah (ho christos, the Christ)!
The critics say: this paragraph is not authentic. It was inserted into Josephus' book by a later Christian copyist, probably in the Third or Fourth Century.

The opinion was controversial. A vast literature was produced over the centuries debating the authenticity of the "Testimonium Flavianum", the Testimony of Flavius Josephus.

A view that has been prominent among American scholars was summarized in John Meier's 1991 book, A Marginal Jew.

This opinion held that the paragraph was formed by a mixture of writers. It parsed the text into two categories: nything that seemed too Christian was added by a later Christian writer, while anything else was originally written by Josephus.

By this view, the paragraph was taken as essentially
authentic, and so supported the objective historicity of Jesus.

Unfortunately, the evidence for this was meager and self-contradictory. But it was an attractive hypothesis.


New Information
In 1995 a discovery was published that brought important new evidence to the debate over the Testimonium Flavianum.

For the first time it was pointed out that Josephus' description of Jesus showed an unusual similarity with another early description of Jesus.

It was established statistically that the similarity was too close to have appeared by chance.

Further study showed that Josephus' description was not derived from this other text, but rather that both were based on a Jewish-Christian "gospel" that has since been lost.

For the first time, it has become possible to prove that the Jesus account cannot have been a complete forgery and even to identify which parts were written by Josephus and which were added by a later interpolator.



2bfound
posted 25-Mar-2003 2:42pm  
Just a few extra biblical references to Jesus Christ


Tacitus


In his Annals, Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 CE) writes that Christians
"derived their name and origin from Christ, who, in the reign of Tiberius, had suffered death by the sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate" (Annals 15.44)


Suetonius

In his The Lives of the Caesars, Suetonius, writing around 120 CE, states:
"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Emperor Claudius in 49 CE] expelled them from Rome." (Claudius 5.25.4)

Thallus

In a lost work referred to by Julius Africanus in the third century, the pagan writer Thallus reportedly claimed that Jesus's death was accompanied by an earthquake and darkness. However, the original text is in fact lost, and we can confirm neither the contents of the text or its date. It is possible that Thallus was merely repeating what was told to him by Christians, or that the passage which Africanus cites is a later interpolation. Outside of the New Testament, no other references to earthquakes or unusual darkness occur in the contemporary literature. This is very surprising, given the effect these sorts of events would presumably have had on the populace.

Pliny the Younger

Pliny the Younger, writing near 100 CE, corresponded regularly with the emperor Trajan. In these writings, Pliny specifically mentions and describes the beliefs and practices of Christians in Asia Minor, and asks Trajan's advice about what action to take against them, if any. However, Pliny's writings provide no independent confirmation of the events of the New Testament, but merely show that there were indeed Christians living in Asia Minor.

2bfound
posted 25-Mar-2003 2:47pm  
Yes you are correct many people have died for what they thought was the truth.
The difference, and a unique difference at that is that the apostles had the unique opportunity to KNOW first hand that who they were dying for either resurrected from the dead or was buried in some grave somewhere. Which makes their death a telling tale of what three days before the resurrection were cowards, to bold witnesses for Jesus even onto death.  * wink *
pandora
(reply to 2bfound) posted 25-Mar-2003 3:48pm  
I have the distinct feeling you're missing my point. Maybe even on purpose.
2bfound
posted 26-Mar-2003 7:33am  
No I have the distinct feeling you did not make a point.
If you have the unique opportunity to know (notice the operative word, KNOW) a thing is true, in this case the apostles had first hand knowledge whether Jesus really did rise from the dead. They could then decide if what they know for a fact is enough to give their lives for.
Someone like say the persons who flew into the trade center, they had a hope that what they believed was true, but only after they were dead did they find out the truth.
Do you understand the difference?
Which is more, stay tuned for my next post.  * smile *
2bfound
posted 26-Mar-2003 7:59am  

Challenge to the skeptic






Being that All of Christianity hinges on the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
We know from secular history that Jesus did live and was crucified in Palestine.

My challenge to any skeptic who is bold enough to take it is:

Disprove the resurrection and you will have disproved Christianity.

I dare say I will have no takers, as to the present there has been no person alive who has been able to present the evidence against the resurrection.

Yes your God lives, and His word admonishes “seek Him while he is near!”

TheseFacts
posted 26-Mar-2003 10:12am  

Q: What Are the Odds of Dying?
A: 10 out of 10 people dye
LAST WORDS OF FAMOUS PEOPLE
Guiteau, Charles (1841-1882)
"Glory hallelujah! I am with the Lord, Glory, ready, go!"

Henry, O. (William Sidney Porter) (1862-1910)
"Don't turn down the light. I'm afraid to go home in the dark."
...an American writer famous for his short stories, especially the Christmas favorite, "The Gift of the Magi."

Eisenhower, Dwight D. (1890-1969)
"I've always loved my wife, my children, and my grandchildren, and I've always loved my country. I want to go. God, take me"

Elizabeth I, Queen of England (1533-1603)
"All my possessions for a moment of time."

She asked her doctor to give her at least 6 more months of life in exchange of half or her kingdom... the doctor could not please her.

Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 26-Mar-2003 11:11am  
Alternatively, prove the resurrection......
TheseFacts
posted 26-Mar-2003 11:30am  
Evasive: tending or intended to evade
Evade:
1 : to slip away
2 : to take refuge in evasion transitive senses
1 : to elude by dexterity or stratagem
2 a : to avoid facing up to (evaded the real issues)
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 26-Mar-2003 11:35am  
Was that to me? You're the one who believes in the thing that requires evidence, not me!
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 26-Mar-2003 11:39am  
Not at all, you've assumed that the default position from theism is no god. I would say you like me have to give reason for your claims, and I will prove the resurrection!
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 26-Mar-2003 11:43am  
Neither of us have seen God. Therefore, the default position (and the falsifiable and therefore scientific statement) is that there is no God. You're the one who is out and out for there being one so it's on you.
ldw
posted 26-Mar-2003 12:20pm  
There are many things we do not understand about the Lord. Its not our job to "figure" it out.
The most important thing, is to have peace within(being saved) and knowing you are going to heaven.
We can cover up and make people think we are living a good life, but we can't hide anything from the Lord. He knows it all.
I wanted to have God's peace so much and was tired of people asking me, are you ok? do you know the Lord? I just made something up, thinking that would make it all ok. Thinking I would feel better and wouldn't have to worry anymore. I was wrong, it made everything worse. Once I did find the Lord, I couldn't believe how better I felt. Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about. Sorry for being so Long winded, but when you feel like I do, you want all to feel the same way. Its hard to understand I am sure, for the ones who haven't experienced it.

Forever Friends
Friendships come and friendships go, but the one I have with you, i hope everyone knows
Times get hard, not all times are sure, but with you everything is pure
All alone and more confused everyday, you brought peace and I cherish that
October the 4th is the day I will never forget
God i love you forever and till the end
2bfound
posted 26-Mar-2003 1:32pm  

The evidence

It has well been claimed that the resurrection of Christ is the pin on which the whole of Christianity hinges. Quite true is the assumption that pulling out this pin, all of Christianity crumbles.

Just how reliable is the resurrection? Very reliable Indeed.

Of the secular historians that I previously mentioned, I also left out an equal number of historians and or references to the existence and death of Christ.

Among the few are, Celsius, Hadrian, Trajan, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion and much more that can be mentioned.

There is no doubt of the existence of Jesus. There is no doubt of the crucifixion of Christ, I would say there is no legitimate historian that would make the claim otherwise.

We then proceed to examine the accounts and events surrounding the resurrection:

We have a prominent figure in Palestine that made headlines (Jesus) everyone is aware that he was put to death. We know this in:

Luk 24:18 And one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answered and said to Him, Are you only a stranger in Jerusalem and have not known the things which have occurred there in these days?

Jesus burial tomb was a matter of public awareness:

Mar 15:43 Joseph of Arimathea, an honorable counsellor, who also waited for the kingdom of God, came and went in boldly to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.

Mat 27:57 When the evening had come, a rich man of Arimathea, named Joseph, came, who also himself was Jesus' disciple.


A rich man’s tomb would be a matter of public knowledge, so everyone in Jerusalem would know the location of this tomb. But just in case there is doubt, we have even more corroborating evidence:

Mat 27:62 And on the next day, which was after the Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered to Pilate,

Mat 27:63 saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while He was living, After three days I will rise again.

Mat 27:64 Then command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night and steal him away and say to the people, He has risen from the dead. So the last error will be worse than the first.

So we havenow the very people that helped put Jesus to death asking of Pilate for a guard (12-16 men) to be posted in front of the tomb, sealing the heavy stone with Pilate’s seal; making the violation of this seal a capital offense:

Mat 27:65 Pilate said to them, You have a watch. Go and make it as secure as you can.

Mat 27:66 And going they made the tomb secure, sealing the stone along with the guard.

Now,to say that the Romans perfected the art of crucifixion is an understatement. They knew very well how to kill a person and make sure he was killed.

If then the crucifixion is a fact, death was assured of Rome’s criminals, but more so with Jesus who after being whipped with the “cat of nine tails” a leather whip with pieces of bone and metal at the ends, so as to slash and tear the flesh. Jesus received 39 lashes.

of survival was not possible, yet the claims of 11 men and their followerswere that this Jesus, came back from the dead.

These men and women would not be dissuaded of the fact that this Jesus resurrected and proved his deity.

Could there be any counter to this claim of the resurrection, I will be bold and say NO! NONE.

I do anticipate the usual unfounded objections to the resurrection, but I gladly welcome them.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not raised, your faith is foolish; you are yet in your sins.

1Co 15:18 Then also those that fell asleep in Christ were lost.

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 26-Mar-2003 1:40pm  
That statement is actually wrong, you work and live on the premise of things unseen and very much real.

To say i don't see something therefore it does not exist is to be opened to be proven wrong!

In any case, I have posted the evidence, disprove it I challenge.


P.S. I do hope friend that you do not think that I have found your comments very enjoyable, and your arguments insightful.
anonymous
posted 26-Mar-2003 3:03pm  
Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

William Lane Craig

check link:
http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html
Inagape
posted 26-Mar-2003 3:30pm  
I believe He is Who He said and entering a personal relationship with Him has changed my life. Nothing can overrule personal experience.
TheseFacts
posted 26-Mar-2003 4:38pm  
Fact:something that has actual existence example:space exploration is now a fact
A piece of information presented as having objective reality
- in fact : in truth
Borrowed from "SCIENTIFIC FACTS"
Ray Comfort page 51
pandora
posted 26-Mar-2003 4:40pm  
"A thorough knowledge of the bible is worth more than a college education"....that has got to be the most depressing quote I've read in weeks.
2bfound
posted 27-Mar-2003 8:09am  
Silence from the would be critics! Where are they, where have they gone?









Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.







2bfound
posted 27-Mar-2003 9:47am  









This is the bad news friends:





Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;



That means everyone, in the Greek the word “all” means ALL!

But take heart friends, now the good news:





Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



It’s a free gift, eternal life in Christ!

Seek Him while He may be found!!



anonymous
posted 28-Mar-2003 12:52pm  
wow
TheseFacts
posted 30-Mar-2003 9:31pm  




God, bless the lives of all people reading this right now, open their hearts and bring peace to their hearts, the peace that only You can provide, Amen
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 31-Mar-2003 8:54am  
I haven't seen any such evidence posted by you. And would you gi'o'er the whacky postings - this survey's gone well and truly screwy now.
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 31-Mar-2003 9:32am  
Yes friend, the postings have gone whacky, I am sorry.

The evidence post above is the proof of the resurrection, of which no challenge has come about. Because we know from many secular sources that Jesus lived and died as he claimed, my question is then "where is the body?"

Had the body of the dead Christ been produced 2000 years ago, Christianity would have gone the way of the DO DO.
TheseFacts
posted 31-Mar-2003 12:18pm  
 "We may seek God by our intellect, but we only can find him with our heart."-Cotvos
Chaplin, Charles (1889-1977)
"Why not? After all, it belongs to him."
Charlie Chaplin was a British actor who became a Hollywood star after joining with Max Sennet during a music hall tour of the United States in 1913. He is usually remembered for his silent picture roles as a little man witha mustache wearing a baggy suit and derby. Many consider Chaplin to be cinema's greatest comedian. When the priest, who was attending him on his deathbed, said "May the Lord have mercy on your soul," Chaplin quickly replied,"Why not? After all, it belongs to him."
 
Long, Huey P., Jr. (The Kingfish) (1893-1935)

"I wonder why he shot me."
Huey P. Long was a Democrat politician who, while governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932, created a powerful political machine and ruled the state as a dictator. He was sent to the Senate in 1932, where he promoted a "share-our-wealth"program that promised to take money from those who had it and redistribute it to those who did not. Long developed considerable support among the poor and was seen as a possible third-party threat to the Roosevelt presidential campaign. He was shot and killed by the son-in-law of a former political opponent.

Do you know when are you going to die?
Would you have a chance to say your last words?
You, the being behind those eyes that read this have no mass, call it soul, spirit, call it whatever you want to call it.... What a has no mass has no time. Time is a physical property. Massless things are not influenced by time.
The real you resides in a body (that has mass). When your body dies, you are still there, the real you is eternal, weather you like it or not, the question is where are you planning to spend the eternal life that has been granted to you?
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 31-Mar-2003 7:27pm  
We don't know where the bodies of the vast majority of people from 2000 years ago are!
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 1-Apr-2003 7:31am  
Oh but friend that there is the beauty and the proof. You see where Christianity saw birth was none other than Jerusalem, where the Jews had put down many other religions coming in to their most sacred and zealously held beliefs. To say that Christianity had it's birth-place here is to say that I can open a Christian church in Saudi Arabia and have it take over. All that the Jewish leaders of that day that fiercely opposed Christianity had to do was produce the body of Christ. The dead body would have quailed all notions of a risen Messiah and put to death any possibilities of this movement.
But as I said, where is the body?
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 3-Apr-2003 9:54am  
Where oh where is my friend Biggles????
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 6-Apr-2003 10:12am  
That isn't proof at all - Christ's supporters could easily have taken the body. Or his death could be faked in the first place. That 2000 years ago, there is no record that Christ's opponents produced his body a certain period after he was supposed to have died is *not* proof that any resurrection took place.
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 6-Apr-2003 10:24am  
"They declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the apostle of God.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did."

"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was no more than God's apostle and His Word which He cast to Mary: a spirit from Him.....God is but one God. God forbid that He should have a son."

"Then God will say: 'Jesus son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: "Worship me and my mother as gods beside God?"' 'Glory be to You' he will answer, 'I could nver have claimed what I have no right to.'"
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 7-Apr-2003 2:25pm  
I am not really sure what you meant to say in your second post, they look like quotes but you don’t mention who quoted them, which is just as good as opinions, so in actuality opinions about the events are no more valid than opinions about life in other planets.

I might have not explained the situation very clear and so I apologize for that, because I know you are a very intelligent person, but you have not thought the implications of the evidence I presented well enough. So I must have not made them clear.

You see friend it would have been very easy for the disciples to have claimed that Jesus was going to resurrect spiritually. That would have been unfalsifiable, and they if they had the idea of starting a new religion would avoid many problems. Instead they said He would resurrect bodily, making the claim easy to be proven false.

All one had to do was produce the body of a dead Jesus and all claims of a triumphant resurrected messiah would have dissipated. Now just so you may know what the implications of claiming a resurrected Jesus in the heart of Jerusalem entails, let me elaborate:

Jerusalem proper was a zealously held property by the Jewish people; many messiahs had come before Jesus and many came after; all were put down. Why then did faith in Jesus flourish in the very place where if it was myth, it could be put to rest and found false?

Because no one could have brought anything against it. Let me explain:

If I today went to New York City and began to claim that the World Trade center towers were felled by volcanic eruptions and seismic conditions, I would be put down very quickly. People in New York know first hand that two planes flew into the buildings.

When Paul claimed that people still alive saw this Jesus resurrected, he was making a challenge to the people to prove him wrong, people could have easily said, “Paul, we saw the dead body, He was never resurrected”. When the persecution of the Christians began in Rome, what emperor would not have had Jesus’ body exhumed to parade around the city and bring down this myth that troubled the Roman empire.


Notice the quotes:

Lucian, a second century Greek satirist:

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them"

The Jewish Talmud, compiled between 70 and 200 AD:

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, `He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."

Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive;

Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition

Friend I give you facts, quotes of real, respected, secular historians.

Did Jesus live and die in Jerusalem? Yes he did.

Was He resurrected from the dead? Yes,all evidence points to it!

Now could the apostles have stolen the body? No never. The bible is clear that the apostles where hiding out, scared and distraught for the life of their teacher had been taken.

The bible says that the Jews asked for a guard to be posted so as to assure the disciples would not steal the body. That is 16 armed men guarding the tomb. But if they somehow stolen the body and perpetuated a myth, would they all have gone to their deaths for what they knew was a lie?

Lets reason together friend.

Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 7-Apr-2003 4:45pm  
Sorry, I meant to say that those quotes were from the Koran. There are the people who were putting Christianity down.
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 7-Apr-2003 7:27pm  
While I do not believe that the Koran is inspired by God. I believe that the Koran is satanic, but on the upside it attests to the life, and death of Jesus. Taken my prior post together the evidence for the resurrection is undeniable.
TheseFacts
posted 8-Apr-2003 11:52am  
 God is at home, it's we who have gone out for a walk.
Meister Eckhart

Jaci Velazquez (23) (song lyrics)
"...People get ready,
Jesus is coming soon
we'll be going home.
People get ready, Jesus is coming
to take from the world his own.
People get ready, Jesus is coming.
Soon we'll be going home.
People get ready, Jesus is coming
soon we'll be going home. (We'll be going home)."

"Heaven or hell it is the most equitable way!" 2bfound - Internet Survey
ThirdDay (Christian Music Band -song lyrics)

"...Was on a hill my Savior died
A broken heart and bleeding side
Hill of the Skull, Mount Calvary
The blood He shed, He shed for me ..."


"Where we go depends on whether we know Jesus as our personal saviour Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and the light, NO-ONE comes to the father EXCEPT THROUGH ME' John 14 v 6" ForbesLopez- Internet Survey
2bfound
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 8-Apr-2003 12:18pm  
Fantastic post, I love the music of third day.
TheseFacts
(reply to 2bfound) posted 8-Apr-2003 1:39pm  
Thanks, Third Day is great, check them out people. It sounds like secular only better.
TheseFacts
posted 8-Apr-2003 1:42pm  
Need a new life? God accepts trade-ins
anonymous
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 8-Apr-2003 4:00pm  
we don't need your quotes on three different surveys
TheseFacts
posted 8-Apr-2003 4:11pm  
No one can ignore Jesus forever
2bfound
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 9-Apr-2003 7:28am  
Yes we do need your quotes on all the surveys, if possible.  * smile *
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 9-Apr-2003 10:24am  
Where art thou? friend.
Have we parted? I hope not.
anonymous
(reply to TheseFacts) posted 9-Apr-2003 10:25am  
Keep em coming, love the quotes, like the colors
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 9-Apr-2003 1:27pm  
It is deniable. The Koran denies it and I believe that the Koran is equally as accurate as the Bible and quite possibly more so. I deny it. The Jews deny it. Non-Christians across the globe deny it. Many Christians even deny it!

Please, stop calling me friend. It mocks true friendship for you to call me that.
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 9-Apr-2003 1:56pm  
Are you not my friend now? If we disagree on an issue, do we have to be enemies?

It is undeniable, give me the proof for the inspiration of the Koran. There are no supporting documents for the koran, written, supposedly by one person who contradicts himself constantly, to the point that the Arab language has suffered to accommodate the Koranic writings.
The whole world may deny it but I say give me thew facts? I gave you historically accepted truths, again "where is the body"? why was it not produced after He died?
Where are my challengers??
Give me the evidence that disputes my claims?? anyone??
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 9-Apr-2003 8:53pm  
Forgive me for my last comment - I'm not well and I'm pretty cranky. I shouldn't have taken it out on you and I'm sorry.
2bfound
(reply to Biggles) posted 10-Apr-2003 2:37pm  
All is forgiven. Smile God loves you.  * smile *
TheseFacts
posted 11-Apr-2003 1:38am  
 "And Jesus said, I am: and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Mar 14:62
Brian Stokes Mitchell - Through Heaven's Eyes (Prince of Egypt soundtrack lyrics)

"A single thread in a tapestry
Through its color brightly shine
Can never see its purpose
In the pattern of the grand design"



"And the stone that sits on the very top
Of the mountain's mighty face
Does it think it's more important
Than the stones that form the base?"


"So how can you see what your life is worth
Or where your value lies?
You can never see through the eyes of man
You must look at your life

Look at your life through heaven's eyes"

"So how do you measure the worth of a man
In wealth or strength or size?
In how much he gained or how much he gave?
The answer will come
The answer will come to him who tries
To look at his life through heaven's eyes"
"And when your eyes are lifted up to heaven, and you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of heaven, do not let yourselves be moved to give them worship, or become the servants of what the Lord has given equally to all peoples under heaven." Bible - Deu 4:19
Biggles Bronze Star Survey Creator
(reply to 2bfound) posted 18-Apr-2003 10:02am  
If Christianity is right (and I don't believe that for an instant) and Judgement Day were tomorrow for some reason, I would go to Hell. God loves me?
ldw
posted 23-Apr-2003 9:56am  
God does love you, but he wants you to put a little effort in. No one can expect to do whatever they want and never give the Lord any thought and then get sent to Heaven, just cause God loves us.
There has to be a want to within. A fear of going to Hell if not saved. You have to want to know God and sometimes you might be at your wits end and the only place to turn to is God. He should be the first we turn to, not the last.
anonymous
posted 26-Apr-2003 11:42am  
What's in a name? Yeshua Ben Joseph, Jesus' real name literally means Yeshua = Joshua = SALVATION OF YAHWEH. Ben = Benadict = blessed or blessed son. Joseph = son of the right hand or son of the south. I guess that would make His name mean "the salvation of all mankind"....but many people don't have His message. Does that mean they will "burn in hell". I think not. I think He was a prophet who became a God when man gave Him the title. After all, the Bible can't lie, can it?
anonymous
(reply to anonymous) posted 26-Apr-2003 5:41pm  
Why couldn't the Bible lie? Of course it could.
ldw
posted 30-Apr-2003 4:33pm  
The bible says we will all hear of him at one time in our life.
tdickensheets
posted 2-May-2003 10:52pm  
Rom 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
jasonmreece
posted 3-Jun-2003 4:20pm  
I spent years investing myself in the Christian religion and was never truly convinced that it is legitimate.
ldw
posted 4-Jun-2003 12:07pm  
I understand where you come from jasonmreece, cause I didn't want to believe at once either.
All I thought I wanted, was to have everyone leave me alone, so I might not think about things so much. I lied about knowing Jesus, just so things would get back to normal. This way, it began to bother me even more. Cause I knew I didn't feel ok inside. To me there isn't any investing, its a feeling of fulfillment. God invests his all in us and once we come to know him, its not investing, its wanting to do things.
wererat
posted 5-Jun-2003 3:47am  
no. I want a real person to come to my rescue, if my life should be in danger.
ldw
posted 9-Jun-2003 9:54am  
it doesn't mean saved like that. Saved from all sins. Meaning all you have done in the past has been forgiven by Jesus Christ. When your at your wits end and you bow to pray for help and suddenly you feel a peace inside, that can't be explained. That is being saved by Christ.
pandora
(reply to ldw) posted 9-Jun-2003 12:24pm  
Or it's a case of good ol' fashioned self-hypnosis. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see.
ldw
posted 9-Jun-2003 1:05pm  
Wait and see? If you haven't experienced what i am talking about, there isn't any waiting and see.
If your sins aren't forgiven, Hell will be your home
pandora
(reply to ldw) posted 9-Jun-2003 1:13pm  
By wait and see, I mean we'll all just have to wait until we die to be sure. I've experienced what you're talking about, and I realized that it was just another case of self fulfilling prophecy. The idea of both sin and hell are so ludicrous that I'm not too worried.
ldw
posted 10-Jun-2003 11:34am  
to glitterbits: So where to you think we go after we die? Who goes there and why?
pandora
(reply to ldw) posted 10-Jun-2003 2:27pm  
I don't claim to know what happens after we die, and it's a good feeling. I don't know, and I don't care. But certain things can be logically taken out of the running. The idea that a 'loving' god would create masses of people, most of whom will spend eternity in hell, is an absurd idea.
ldw
posted 11-Jun-2003 11:47am  
I respect what u are saying, but why do people think God would stand and let us do whatever we want to do and then let us come to heaven. He died for our sins and all he wants us to do is come to him and ask for forgiveness, when we come to a certain age.
LindaH Bronze Star Survey Creator
posted 21-Feb-2017 11:19am  
Whoadang, all that mark-up
JessicaWoman99 Bronze Star Survey Creator Survey Qualifier
posted 28-Feb-2017 12:54pm  
Yes I am a bible believing Christian Jesus will seek and save those who are lost without Him
Jesus says whoever calls upon Him they will be saved from going to hell
JessicaWoman99 Bronze Star Survey Creator Survey Qualifier
posted 28-Feb-2017 1:11pm  
I love this survey Praises to God in heaven those who deny Jesus I never knew you Jesus will say
Hell and Heaven are very real as those who reject Jesus will find out when you take your last breath then it is to late for you
Life is not a game of Chess ?
JessicaWoman99 Bronze Star Survey Creator Survey Qualifier
posted 28-Feb-2017 1:50pm  
> When Jesus said we must be "born again". I think he meant it literally.

Yes indeed very true we must be born again to enter into heaven because there is no sin in heaven, our bodies are purified and cleansed from all sin and wrongdoing
JessicaWoman99 Bronze Star Survey Creator Survey Qualifier
posted 28-Feb-2017 1:57pm  
For God so loved this world he gave us Jesus His only begotten Son for whoever believes in Him they shall be saved Jesus loves us all and he wants all of us in heaven with him when we take our last breath I am a born again believer and I know Jesus
Gomezy3k
posted 27-Mar-2017 12:57pm  
How can I believe in a god who does nothing for me.
FordGuy
(reply to Gomezy3k) posted 28-Mar-2017 6:51am  
Blindly.  * grin * Follow blindly. Beer
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