User	Comment
kaleb777	posted 12-Sep-2001 6:40am   I have been through Asia, including Malaysia and Indonesia (Bali). While I was in Malaysia I was jeered at in the street by people who assumed I was a Christian. I will never again go to these countries or any other Islamic country. I will become politically active and push for the withdrawal of Australian aid from Indonesia who do nothing to to help Australia protect our borders. Muslim "boat people" have been shown on the streets of Jakarta buying passage to Australia while police stand by. For these people religion comes before the rule of law. I currently sponsor a child in Tanzania. I am planning to sponsor another child in a third world country partially to offset my University fees, but mainly because I wish to support a child in true need. I will tell World Vision that I do not want my money going to a Muslim country. I will not have my money going to a country that may one day support actions such as what has happened in the US.
ASexyBabe	posted 12-Sep-2001 7:30am   I don't fly very often.
romkey	posted 12-Sep-2001 8:38am   I may modify some travel plans; I need to see how things go over the next week or so to decide how comfortable I am travelling overseas.
Pomeranian	posted 12-Sep-2001 10:20am   I
Maarten	posted 12-Sep-2001 10:25am   Nope. Luckily I don't live in The States, but even then it's impossible to do anything against attacks like yesterday.
Gamera	posted 12-Sep-2001 11:00am   Well, I may come out of shock in a few days... that would be different. Right now my only change is being more focused in my spiritual practice.
msgman	posted 12-Sep-2001 11:15am   I won't modify any behaviour as such, but this has increased my determination to get involved in political issues. We desparately need to find ways of breaking down the barriers between the rich and poor nations, between the west and the east, etc, and find a way to strengthen democracies against the attacks of extremists.
Biggles	posted 12-Sep-2001 11:27am   I've never flown before. I think I would be more concerned about flying now. However security should be tightened up as a result of what has happened.
juliw	posted 12-Sep-2001 12:08pm   I don't know, really. I mean, you aren't guaranteed safety anywhere, but you still can't live in fear, either. All this has had a devastating effect on all of us. Just like everyone my age remembers the day Kennedy was assassinated, I think everyone will remember this horrifyingly tragic chain of events, too. I hope justice is served without sacrificing our basic freedoms, but I really don't see how. It is terrifying!
Enheduanna	posted 12-Sep-2001 12:18pm   I had plans to fly to Italy Friday, which I may not do, although it may not even be by choice at this point.
they	posted 12-Sep-2001 12:26pm   I don't know if I'll ever feel as safe as I did two days ago.
Oscar	posted 12-Sep-2001 12:55pm   no
bill	posted 12-Sep-2001 1:21pm   I'm going to switch to 1% milk.
Jemmy	posted 12-Sep-2001 1:51pm   I don't know. All I know, is I feel scared and vulnerable, and I used to ignore planes when they flew over head. Now my stomach lurches.
LindaH	(reply to bill) posted 12-Sep-2001 2:11pm
confetti	posted 12-Sep-2001 2:30pm   I'm as safe in Costa Rica as I can be. But I want to go back to the U.S., as soon as I can. If anything, I think I've become more American. Everybody has, because everyone's feeling the same; shaky, angered, mournful and passionate. All those talking heads were right; this WILL unite us. It MUST do so. If I go back to California (San Francisco) I'm taking a gun. I hate weapons, even looking at them. But I know how to use it, and if I can save lives by doing so, I will.
Brian	(reply to kaleb777) posted 12-Sep-2001 4:14pm   Ahh..I see your experience with Islam parallels my own. I am used to being a second class citizen in Latin America, but in my experiences with Syrians, Algerians and Tunisians did not expect or understand the arrogance of Islamic people when I had interactions with them. I am but an infidel in their eyes.
darkshadowsseeker	posted 12-Sep-2001 4:17pm   I can't imagine anything I could do that would do any good. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen. I know that sounds like a fatalist point of view, but I can't see how changing my job or changing what bus I ride to work would be effective. I'm always cautious about whom I trust anyway and don't live near a place that I would think would be a target.
darkshadowsseeker	(reply to bill) posted 12-Sep-2001 4:18pm   Why not go straight to skim (fat free) milk?
kaleb777	(reply to Brian) posted 12-Sep-2001 4:41pm   I think the catastrophe in the US shows that we may be infidels in their eyes, but they are barbarians in the eyes of everyone else. They will really get a shock when they meet their maker and he isn't Allah.
dora	posted 12-Sep-2001 4:46pm   I'll be more assertive in what I plan to do since I have the feeling that tomorrow I could be dead.
jettles	posted 12-Sep-2001 4:47pm   no, probably not at all. i don't think that anything i could change in my life would make something like this not happen. it is so random, as far as where you might be and when. i guess other than becoming politically active and change how we dealt with terrorists in some way.
Kristal_Rose	posted 12-Sep-2001 5:02pm   Yes, I will be far more careful about what I pray for.
Biggles	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 12-Sep-2001 5:05pm   Why do yu think it happened because of your prayer?
jkiehart	posted 12-Sep-2001 5:07pm   Pfft. I'd like to leave New York City. I assumed that there would be a large terrorist attack while I was living here, and now that it has, Vermont is looking better and better every moment.
Brian	(reply to kaleb777) posted 12-Sep-2001 5:10pm   Despite my previous religious soapboxing, I can not get pious at this moment, because I have had some most uncharitable thoughts towards the villians who commmitted this crime. My thoughts about the type of punishment they should suffer put me right up there with them in heinous acts.
kaleb777	(reply to Brian) posted 12-Sep-2001 5:42pm   How about some archaic Anglo-Saxon cultural punishments - pouring molten lead on their bodies. Disemboweling them alive then quartering them and sending each body part to Afghanistan.
bill	(reply to darkshadowsseeker) posted 12-Sep-2001 6:21pm   I don't know... maybe if the whitehouse had gotten blown-up, I'd go that far. Skim milk is pretty watery.
HareKrishna	posted 12-Sep-2001 6:34pm   I keep on chanting: HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Biggles) posted 12-Sep-2001 7:27pm   Because my prayer was that surveillance sattelites would fall from the sky, and any institutions responsible for restraining censorship, selfish capitalistic intrusive demographic profiling of communications monitoring, or global resource exploitation for the benefit of a few powerful people to the demise of ecological global self-sustainment and freedom of thought, theology, and local community self-empowerment. I sat in the same bathtub I had my baptismal ceremony in and crashed my hands in the water repeatedly as sattelites falling. The immediate result was a day of slow internet traffic. I was worried that by praying down surveillance to allow people free-er communication, I was also putting us at risk for the prevention of events such as just happened. When I prayed for the demise of such technology God told me that it hadn't happened yet; to hold on. The targets of these concerns were likely to be located in the pentagon and the wtc. I never hoped a single person would get hurt. This prayer went quite awry. My goal was peace and freedom, not violence and increased police security.
ASexyBabe	(reply to bill) posted 12-Sep-2001 9:43pm   lol thanks for putting a smile on my face
Cleo	posted 12-Sep-2001 10:45pm   No if it's my time to kick the bucket,then so be it.......
darkshadowsseeker	(reply to bill) posted 12-Sep-2001 10:53pm   That's true.
mandy	posted 12-Sep-2001 11:08pm   No...I refuse to live in fear. I am cautious enough. I'd rather live...really live every day...without fear of death or loss.
SueBee	posted 13-Sep-2001 1:35am   Maybe. That remains to be seen. Although I have been giving some thought to preparing for the worst, in case this escalates into World War III.
SueBee	(reply to kaleb777) posted 13-Sep-2001 1:47am   Wow, you're having even more vicious thoughts than I am...I didn't know that was possible!
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 13-Sep-2001 4:16am   I did dream I was unblinkingly disemboweled while continuing in religious battle just before the event happened. I suppose that is the degree of zealousness they must have.
Brian	(reply to kaleb777) posted 13-Sep-2001 8:43am   Worse than that. Rather than killing, incapacitating them physically that them might never again have use of limb or speech. (Mute quadriplegics) Then have them watch (for the reminder of their lives) day after day recordings of tragic events that happen to THEIR PEOPLE, THEIR COUNTRIES and THEIR SYMBOLS as a result of their actions. The torment would come from having to witness the destruction of those things dear to their hearts and being absolutely powerless to respond or even scream out from the mental anguish. I have not limited my wish for vengeance to only an eye for an eye. God forgive me for such wicked thoughts. I am as bad as they.
Brian	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 13-Sep-2001 8:51am   Your concern over your "prayer" seems a bit self-centered...unless, of course, you have the powers to actually accomplish such deeds?
Irene007	posted 13-Sep-2001 12:50pm   No - there's not much I can do that will change anything. Our governments have alot to think about though...
anoddoblivion	posted 13-Sep-2001 1:05pm   No, not at all. Life will be good, all will be good in the end. Many people will think I'm crazy or not like my reply, HATE it, in fact, but I think anway, don't worry about it. Good will prevail in the end. God is taking care of it.
kaleb777	(reply to Brian) posted 13-Sep-2001 1:33pm   A friend of mine said that those who are still alive when caught should be stabbed to death with a crucifix dipped in pigs blood, then cut open, their gut removed and flushed down a toilet and pig entrails dumped inside, sewn up and then the bodies fed to pigs. Of course all of that would have to be shown on TV so that anyone else who thinks of being a terrorist will know what's coming to them. Either that or have to watch 24 hr "Bold and the Beautiful"
Biggles	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 13-Sep-2001 1:41pm   I know that my "level" is hardly yours, but I cannot believe that the words and thoughts of a prayer have a greater effect than the intention. Surely God knew what you meant? And if you were praying for this to happen, what of all those praying for it not to happen? And if it was your prayer, was it yours alone? Thousands of people round the world pray daily for something like this to happen to the West. You know what your prayer was and what occured, I don't. But I don't believe that you can claim the blame for the attack. This attack was planned years ago - it must have been. You mentioned, "God told me that it hadn't happened yet" - why those words in particular? Were you being tld that it would happen, rather than it would happen for you? We can do the most appalling things with the best of intentions. Those intentions are what matter. There is always repentence - it may be a Christian concept on the whole, but it is always there. But it would be wrong for you to blame yourself for something which is most likely not your fault. I don't know what to say to you. I've often had that problem with you - I feel like I'm talking rubbish and you'll think me foolish. But this time I want to tell you what I think, but I don't have the words and I don't have the understanding to help. I remember once when I was about 8, our first pet rat had testicular cancer. He had an operation to castrate him. I remember praying that day that he would die because it seemed to me that I always received the opposite of what I prayed for. He bled to death during the operation. Even now I still feel that guilt. My logical mind tells me it wasn't my fault but another part off me claims it as something terrible that I did. Another time I asked for a particular exam question believing it would be a miracle if I got it; and I did. I put it aside as coincidence, but again part of me believes that it happened because I asked. I do believe in the power of prayer, however confused I am about the truth of religion or God. I don't even know what point I'm trying to make. Just that I want you to be okay.
Brian	(reply to kaleb777) posted 13-Sep-2001 4:47pm   Disgusting! I feel guilty about my emotional reaction and am glad that I am not the one who will have to decide the "appropriate response". I would do more harm than good.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Brian) posted 13-Sep-2001 5:55pm   I was concerned that I was self-centered. My global prayers usually do get answered. I choose weathar changes when I travel. This is not the first time I successfully prayed against technology. more in the comment to biggles...
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Biggles) posted 13-Sep-2001 6:42pm   Way back when I denounced God and my town collapsed I was a pure existentialist. Since then I believe in synchronistic multiple-existentialism: God gives everyone the life appropriate to them. Some people are conscious that their environment is an interactive free-will conscious script, others are not. I can step into others lives and see that all their issues, fears, and desires are being made manifest around them, even though they may be oblivious of how they affect there surroundings or local logos. I will run into situations as a normal course of my life that others would not. For instance of the few people I've chatted with here at SC, three had prophetic dreams of the event. Someone else would not even meet these people, let alone believe it. The WTC event was in the air already. Three movies that were just about to be released have been pulled off the market because they were all about hi-jackings and bombings in NY. Americans have been protesting international banking this year in abundance. I am not alone. On the other hand, my world-view and experience is instantaneous. At the deepest level of creation, I do not even believe that time and history exist. If I decide that minerals can support life-programming, I immediately stumble upon websites that explain how volcanic rock was discovered in 1972 with DNA & proteins, that this third form of life existed billions of years, prior to non-mineral biology. For me, it is my immediate free-will script, even if in a parallel dimension, the history was already there. It's as if history is written to match my moment. For some people there are miracles and incidents of mind-over-matter. In my realm all that exists is constant miracle and mind-over-matter. God is omnipresent. At every moment I am deciding things like my television reception, that ink flows from my pen, etc. About your rat story: There have been times when things were going so horrendous around me that I decided that obviously my prayers made no difference in protecting my neighbor kids. I experimented by deciding 'ok then, let it go to hell, i give up'; instantly my neighbors started beating the hell out of their kids and I couldn't bear it. I had to go back to my state of being distracted from work so that I could maintain the well being of my neighbors by prayer. Very often when I go grocery shopping it takes a while because I'm busy psychically comforting crying babies/toddlers in other aisles. My point is that your prayers are affecting things even if it appears to not go well. Don't give up. I think my dream was to help me understand the mind-set of the terrorists. Never in my life would I even envision myself in a fist fight. You'll recall the grievous weight with which I took poisoning my cockroaches. I do keep in mind that I never would have let my prayers against technology and policies involve harm to people. A year and 1/2 ago for new years I prayed down some horrendous military technology. That one was passed off as a y2k difficulty. I've worked with a spiritual order that concerned themself with praying far more significant courses of human events into place. The concern was not repeating an Atlantis like destruction. I left them because it was their intent to eradicate free will and connect everyone with the divine plan. It is my position that we can change events, but should not change the people themselves. (in emergencies I do though.)
Brian	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 14-Sep-2001 9:27am   I find that God answers my personal prayers when they are motivated by a pureness of spirit and surrender to His Will, however, those are usually very minor, involving increased internal strength and peace to accept His Will. Some days I feel truly invigorated by a power not of my own. In other words, He gives me what I need, not necessarily what I want. I have never had any "global prayer" answered no matter how pure my intentions or unselfish my motives. You say your global prayers get answered? This begs the obvious question...
Brian	(reply to Biggles) posted 14-Sep-2001 9:41am   Some statements made here in SC challenge even the most active of imaginations...
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Brian) posted 14-Sep-2001 2:32pm   Hundreds of inventions, movie plots, advertising techniques, getting advertisers to clean up their subliminal product sales, the demise of certain highly abusable technologies, spiritual movements, political campaigns.. Since it's a daily thing i don't really keep track. I will never again however pray for a destructive retaliation as this first mistake has shown me. Not all of my prayers are answered. People still carry and use guns for instance. Your words ring very true. It takes an initial will and desire followed by a surrender that Godswill be done. When I'm entirely plugged in though, that's not an issue; what I envision instantly occurs (usually with the physical laws of cause and effect). This self will is an illusion though. I've had times that might involve complex intellect ie computer programming, but instead my mind is engaged in a worship loop of God with my rock radio and I am only vaguely aware that my hands are typing away the most proficient code 'I've ever written. As one goes out of body, I've also gone out of mind when my mind was engaged in high plane spiritual discussion. The ego is merely along for the ride. Whethar on a physical or spiritual will activity level, it is merely a convenient delusion. There is nothing here but God. We are the eyes and ears of God for Gods enjoyment of God. The eye creates. God is one, therefore my thoughts and international events are born simultaneously of the same creator/perceiver. You still have the conception that you are person, and not an extension of the creators manifestation. I am as much those terrorists and victims as anything else. For the most part though I continue to dwell in this illusion of personal being amongst other personal beings, but at times it has taken a personal decision to continue that misbelief. You seem to understand the subtlties of humility. The 'unselfish', and 'just what you need' are valid if that's what it takes to evade your ego and take a big picture view of your prayers. To favor your body over others would not be right. I have many other states too. In some, none of this an issue. You just wander in love, helping whoever is in your path, and accepting whatever is offered. No will or decisions are required at all. Every detail is taken care of without your having to worry. It means abiding in a pure flowing heart. You do not require any more of the world, and yet the world purifies around you and becomes a wondrous delight. I left that realm however, and I can't explain why. I think that makes me what one calls a Bodhisattva. Usually though I'm as clueless as the rest of us. I've delved very lightly into the direct manipulation of time and matter, just enough to see it's possible. I've left that work alone for more than a year now. I decided that I should be motivated by love, not intrigue, even if that entailed living at a lower level.
Brian	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 14-Sep-2001 3:21pm   "We are the eyes and ears of God for Gods enjoyment of God." (Kurt Vonnegut in one of his books says what you have stated.) There is a similar passage in the Bible, which I can not locate right now, that says that we were made by God for God's purposes. The passage (King James translation) uses, I think, the phrase "God's enjoyment". I will find this tonight. Anyway, I think a basic philosophical difference between us, Ms. KR, is that you give the impression that you are part of God's "decision making counsel", where I believe I am merely His servant. I see no overwhelming evidence that God seeks our counsel. The contrary. There is an instruction which seem clearest to me that I deduce from I Peter, verse 8. "Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory." I deduce the following. Man says: "Show me, and I will believe and obey." God says; "Believe and obey, and I will show you." He holds a few more aces in this poker game than we, for us to try to pull such a bluff. His ways are already decided without our input. Our participation is that we are free to accept or not accept that.
Biggles	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 14-Sep-2001 3:34pm   I guess I can't even begin to understand......I don't think my mind is built like that As to not giving up prayer....I don't know. I was beginning to feel I could almost sense the outermost part of what I really, truly believe. I think I've lost that.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Brian) posted 14-Sep-2001 7:10pm   I believed first, then was shown. In one state of mine, everything I think of comes true. I've had accidental thoughts like the destruction of my father-in-laws new car, and the next day A cement-truck tumbled over his car (fortunately he was unscratched though the car was totalled). I did a thunder dance one night and the next morning appeared out of the blue one of the greatest thunder storms LA had in years. I choose what weathar will be present on my vacations, and arrive with great auroras, for instance if I want to build a toboggan run I let the tempurature rise above freezing before letting it fall to 60 below. This happens when I take it for granted, not when I try. Because this just happens naturally without my even knowing why, I feel obligated to think up the best stuff for society that I can. As I said before, I feel everything is made of God, and that private ownership is a delusion, this extends to my thoughts as well, although I also mentioned that I've discovered our thoughts are not any sort of cause, on either the spiritual or interpersonal-physical plane. We do not move our hands, God does. God tell me I sit at God's side. Last Easter I was offered anything I wanted. I think the offer was not limited to bounds of time, space, and matter. I declined. It was in fact terribly distressing. I realized that to join the total omniscient and omnipotent capacity would make no thing greater than another, would destroy diferentiation, choice and decision. That in effect joining God to that extent would be relinquishing the individual human perspective that allows me to love God and creation. There are still things I do not know. I said that at times creation is a perfect mirror of my thoughts, but I have still not realized the source of these thoughts/creation. That remains for me the unseen aspect of God. In kaballistic terms, that is Keter. My thoughts and creation are Chochmah and Binah. Long ago I strove in everyway possible to offer myself to God. I do not propose that all unharmonious thoughts of non-believers are so empowered, particularly for those who's thoughts reside on an entirely ego-centric level. I'm also perfectly willing to accept that my predestiny was such that I just happen to be in the right place and time to experience my thoughts that were going to happen with or without me. I do however see everyone's thoughts manifest about them to some extent, even if they have no spiritual belief what-so-ever. Those who expect misery see that, those who expect scientific debunking see that. God grants our life scripts. btw I come across all sorts of people. I know people who don't even know about your realm of cause and effect (I had to explain). For them, they plan to have their wake up call be a knock on the door by a long lost friend. They have the neighbors dog bark to indicate a pancake needs flipped. For them, a person saying 'It's not my fault' is a non-sequitor. They don't realize that 90% of this planet hasn't a clue that they write their own comprehensive life script. I had to strive most of my life to attain that understanding. Some people close to me were born with it, and I have to insist that they learn to operate on a lower level to have compassion for, and communication skills with those who can not see. Well, that's my 2¢ worth. Vonnegut was on to some heavy stuff. When you connect Keter with Malkuth, you have Ice-9, Conscious-matter, lightspeed virulent nano-tech re-genesis, a golem. It can be attained through matter or consciousness. The goal of one group I knew was to prevent matter-scientists from getting there by prayer-subjugation. It's getting close. Einstein was halfway there. It was called soliflux back in his day. I meet a few powerful occultists working in such industries. God will prevail even if we turn matter into virtual reality, so I've turned my concentration to more pressing matters. Really, it's all God's game. If we start creation from scratch or evolve in some fashion, from eternity's standpoint, it's inconsequential. In our present state, it is this moment that is of consequence and we should fill it with love. I just got a phone call from a Nichiren Buddhist group I explored a year ago. Their belief is exactly what I would not wish you to associate my belief system with. They believe in tapping the powers (especially collective ancestral spirit) for entirely personal benefit. There are two spiritual spiritual forces within human reach: occultism and mysticism. Mysticism means poking your head up into the clouds, to live in a spiritual realm to listen to the logos, the guiding voice of god, though there are dark mystics too. Occultism is to inhabit the physical inter-personal realm but to reach your hand into the heavens for the power to make things manifest. Moses was an occultist, but he was foremost a mystic, getting visions from burning bushes and such. To become an occultist without first undergoing the mystical training is irresponsible. We aren't always granted that privelage though. Often I have to use my own judgement then God will only inform me afterwards if it was a wise decision or not. For many years I prayed that god would take over my thoughts and actions, because my power seemed to exceed my wisdom, but that doesn't seem to be how it works.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Biggles) posted 14-Sep-2001 7:28pm   I spent 25 years in preparation for an awakening, then another 13 learning spiritual work. Anyone can do it. I was surrounded by a diversity of significant spiritual teachers most of my life, so the odds were in my favor. Children seem to be born with a spiritual understanding that is trained out of them by the age of 5. Understanding often comes in quantum energy levels; build up enough energy and you are suddenly immersed into a new state of being. If you think you lost it, you think you have it. Ignorance is a choice, sometimes sub-conscious or unconscious but on some level still a choice. Ignorance makes the world go round. If not for ignorance of pure God, we would be nothing but pure light bliss potential for creation with nothing actually seeming to happen. I reside primarily in higher intelligence. It's an uncommon path. Most people on a spiritual path go the route of higher heart. There is nothing but God. Keep that in mind and delight in creation. You are made of the eternal so you will do what you are meant to and your essence has eternity to learn. Making the most of the moment, striving to remember God will lead to all else.
wolfdog	posted 14-Sep-2001 10:37pm   I will just be more alert of the people around me.
Brian	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 15-Sep-2001 9:44am   Well, your experiences put you in a pretty powerful position, not experienced by most folks. (Although I understand from your perspective that it is the collective, and oft times conflicting, prayers of the inhabitants of earth which have caused the chaos.) Still...ahh...might you do something so that divergent ideologies can live in peace and harmony? We less connected would appreciate it.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Brian) posted 15-Sep-2001 6:00pm   I'm of course contemplating it. It would seem to involve directly affecting the minds of leaders. I can astrally visit soul mates, not just anyone yet. Remember Moses: People consider his capabilities awesome, but in relationship to the grand scheme he was quite powerless and uninformed. He could part the Red Sea, but he could not stop Pharoah. That parting of the red sea to the land of milk and honey is a multi-tiered metaphor btw for manipulations of usually unseen forces. I can start by saying to you all, if you see with diferentiation, then at least react with compassion and harmony. If even one mind contains vengeance, the spirit of vengeance will continue to exist. I am looking for yet another state of consciousness to help through this one. In terms of a tarot path (for other readers) I have reached the second tier of the tower and need to find what the second tier of the star is about. These past couple days I've been seeing blue light about me, which I suspect is related. My tower collapsed too. After 13 years I was preparing to rebuild my worldly life. I was hit by a quake a day or two before the WTC. On nat'l TV last night the cathedral service was mixed. All the sermons were political. The most devout message seemed to be the islamic one 'god is merciful and compassionate. those with the utmost patience see his glory. do not wield your own power'. The rabbi emphasised foreworded with security and the rebuilding of jerusalem. The methodists/baptists faiths were 'god is my fortress. march to heaven'. (guess what faiths our soldiers tend to be). The ceremony closed with the Battle Hymn of the Republic. The media is increasingly doing segments on veterans. Do not forget that the media and religious leaders have political agendas. Also watch out for the co-opting of the messages from genuine spiritual leaders. They can say wonderful things but a follow-up segment can change the context as if the words meant something else. I'm thinking with some cynical criticism. It's not a pure form of thought. It is part of the problem in the first place. Not the sort of energy that creates positive transformation of reality. Pray with unconditional love. Only that seperates boundaries.
nasale	posted 15-Sep-2001 11:14pm   My aunt died recently and it got me to thinking (for the millionth time) about whether there is a God or not. I've never been a doubter or a believer. It has to be proven to me. Sometimes, I think maybe there is a god (of sorts). Then, crap like this happens and I can't for the love of me figure out how any God could let this happen. The buggers in the middle east are giving thanks to Allah for helping them to attack the U. S. !! Since there's only one God, (so we are told) just whose side is He on? They are convinced they are right and so are the religious leaders here. This is never going to convince me that a 'divine power' is in control. (If there is one,) God help us all.
serendipity	posted 16-Sep-2001 8:05am   Keep my mouth shut more often and think before I talk.
davethebrave371	posted 16-Sep-2001 5:04pm   I am already politically active, and that is the only thing here I am/will do. I will not modify myself because of tragedy. I trust those worthy of my trust, regardless of skin and religion. I will not purchase weapons, as violence only causes more violence. I find it disgusting and sickening to know that there are humans out there who would kill simply because of a culture being imposed upon them, but I am even MORE disgusted by those who would kill out of revenge for other deaths. 1+1=2 deaths. Not 0. 2. 100, 000+100, 000=200, 000 deaths. Not 100, 000. We can't just expect to kill and pretend that makes up for the other deaths. We just cause more deaths.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to nasale) posted 16-Sep-2001 6:34pm   You will find that those who witness god were willing to believe first. You are looking for god the omnibeneficent/benevolent. That is making several presumptions, among them that God is an independent entity separate from people, creation, the devil, etc. Look at what you do know: If god exists as creator, then all this is made of God, every object, every thought. How could something not be composed of god? God is eternal. Even armageddon or trillions of years of space exploration are but blink in the eye within that scope. People choose to watch horror movies. They could have chosen to drift in a hot tub of blue light mindlessly digging some scintillating bell sound. They do not. If god is all, our experiences are the choice of god who choses to experience good and evil over non-being. Perhaps next millenia we will do something else, what the heck, we're eternal. The pain lasts less than the impulse to blink. If you want to see God (so far you want to be in doubt and waiting and that therefore is what you have experienced) then keep in mind that God creates both your thoughts and surroundings. Look for the relationships. If you are depressed, you will hear depressing music. If you are joyful you will hear that. A horse lover might imagine that everyone is a horse lover because they see horse several times a day on the billboards they pass and such. However non-horse lovers do not even pass such billboards. God puts us together like gears in a clock, each getting appropriate experiences. Your life is one of reaction and waiting. If you want things to change you will have to make the first move then observe. It might be foggy all month. If I want to go to the beach I put on my swimsuit, get on my bike and the sun comes out. Many of the major movies to be released expressed the synchronicity of the WTC event. Look for synchronicity. Yes, god can be a force that speaks to us independently like a mentor, but that is only a detail of things, better to drop your conceptions of god as some lone dude and consider omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience and what the physics of reality might be in that circumstance. If you were God how would you make the world different? Think really big and really small. Most people think like people creating 'a' god; think instead like god creating a universe to be experienced and the picture is a bit different. Imagine a blind person, imagine a person unaware of the existence of emotions as anything other than behaviors {they are given a flower, they smile. who knows why?} For those of us who witness god, the rest of the population seems to have such shortcomings. It's internal, it's observable, how can you miss what is right in front of your face, yet so it is. As Jesus said, the quick and the dead you will always have with you. One can change their status however. Wait and you will wait forever. All I can offer you is believe and you will see. Those who only believe that some day they will see, will only see some day, not now. Because we have forgotten that we are made of god, we have such free will. The middleground between created and creator consciousness is an intriguing delight. If doubt, not faith is your tool, then doubt that this reality is what it seems. You are given the reality your faith holds together. You presume others have the same experience.They do not. They intersect with your life in such fashion that you are free to maintain your existing conception of reality.
jkiehart	(reply to Brian) posted 16-Sep-2001 9:28pm   I am loving the Bible. I dusted my copy off last night and was so moved by the Psalms and the words of Jesus. And the Song of Solomon. The most beautiful, passionate love poems I've ever read. The Old Testament also made me chuckle with "The treatment of servants" (Ex. 21) If you beat your slave, and your slave manages to hold on to life for more than a day or two before dying, you're off the hook. I NEVER thought I'd say this, (even as a non-practicing Roman Catholic), but I'm finding a great deal of solace in the bible. Did you know that Jesus says to pray alone in a room with the door closed? He says public prayer is.. oh I forget the exact phrase, but I interperted it as "tacky." Oh, found it: Matthew 6: And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go in to your room, and when you have shut the door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; Interesting. I wonder where attending mass fits into, then. I find church (found, it's been years, and my community is Jewish, I think I might be able to find a Catholic church if I really try, but who can get up that early?) to be very peaceful and grounding. I don't know which specific message you wrote that I'm replying to, but I read some of your bible quotes, and I just thought I'd say, hey, the Bible's good reading.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to jkiehart) posted 17-Sep-2001 1:08am   He also mentioned gathering in his name. See god everywhere all the time and do so as an issue between yourself and god, not as a behavior rewarded by society. That doesn't mean that there isn't something to be gained by worshiping together. Vibes are amplified, but 'us and them' thinking can arise, even if it's to do good.
Brian	(reply to jkiehart) posted 17-Sep-2001 7:51am   About two years ago I picked up the Bible after a twenty year absence and over the past two years have read the whole thing. (King James version at that) I was/is slow going, but I began to find solace and wisdom and guidance in the Bible as you have. It is not only The Good Book, but a good book. About praying alone, Jesus's point was don't make a show of praying in public just to be seen. That is not in keeping with serious prayer to God. Jesus also said when two or more gather in His name He will be present. The difference is what is your objective. If it is to be seen by others as religious, that it the wrong goal, and God is not fooled one bit. He knows one is serious when one conducts one's prayer in private, because it then just a one-on-one communication. I am always happy to see others turn/return to the scriptures. I hope you find the comfort I have. May God watch over and guide us all.
Brian	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 17-Sep-2001 8:17am   I follow your "logic", but find it difficult to believe that all the serious positive prayers for peace being said at this moment in time by such a large segment of the world population would not be able to "override" the few negative prayers out there. You said: "For many years I prayed that god would take over my thoughts and actions, because my power seemed to exceed my wisdom, but that doesn't seem to be how it works." This is contrary to Biblical teachings: divine power comes from wisdom and surrender to God. God is not foolish enough to put power in the hands of the unprepared or those not performing His will. So, from whence cometh your "power", KR? You say your prayers go awry. That while you get your personal wish for a sunny day, the farmers near you get draught. You pray for technology failure and it happens. What entity would grant you such forces that when you pray the result brings about misery for others? If you are truly as successful as you say...there is cause for concern.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Brian) posted 17-Sep-2001 1:26pm   Peoples prayers in the most comprehensive version are not for the better. If I can believe the news then 86% of this US wants war, if it it involves heavy US casualties then still 66%. Read what I wrote in the spiderman survey; My point there being that this is the sort of stuff people like to watch in movies, and that God grants the desires of our collective subconscious. My prayers have never gone awry before. The last time we had a drought in LA I did a rain dance and we got so much rain the next morning that 14 houses washed away. I ask god what to do several times a day. There was a time for about three years in which I would not even shampoo my hair first without a word from the logos. I am listening all the time. Often I am merely informed of situations like some tired people are having difficulty. I am not told to help, but because it is my nature to do so, I am there at the bottom of the stairs when they arrive. On the occasion that I imagine a word can't possibly apply to my situation, and instead follow my own judgement and desire, I usually get royally screwed, for instance being cheated into buying a car which needs hundreds of dollars of fines paid and still needs thrown away the following week. Surrender is a key part to it. I may confidentally expect a rare drafting arm to appear at the thrift store, but it does not appear until the following day after I have realized that I will have one if and only if God wants me to. That is presuming I am living on a participant plane. If I am entirely plugged in I could have the tool right away if it is appropriate, but my mind is not engaged in the trivial matters of my body. When hurricane 'Gabriel' was approaching, I prayed for rainbows and fair weathar to replace the lightening storms. I am not against the technology itself. I am against the subliminal sell of drugs to the populace, machines that psychoanalyze us to sell us products and propoganda at the right instant, that control when and what we say to whom, institutions that would make propogation of plants, even human reproduction and breathing utilities they could charge for, weapons that we unknowingly harbor in our own homes that can send matter into oblivion, and eventually (soon) a science that will obsolete rigid matter almost entirely. I have never wished the death of anyone, and I mourn these recent deaths, and I've put all work aside to pray more intensely to prevent war. Back in my earlier computer programming days the sort of project that I worked on for two months would eradicate 1200 labor years, so that we could drive new sports cars. Unfortunately good innocent people work for the beast. You don't know of the 1000's of prayers that put rare forms of rainbow over those sharing my pies for mothers day. There are times I can not help: I recall once living in the woods with an occasionally pure hearted man that besides a being a gifted artist was also a con-man and prior murderer (a coke dealer had screwed him out of 60 grand). If his trailer got a flat, I would find a tire in minutes but then the next one would go flat 5 minutes later. My karma there was a heaven, his was a hell. We could both see what was happening, but even little miracles could not change his circumstance. That trip was the first time I saw Gabriel manifest. I do run into Satan at times. Once I realize it, I pull the plug on his interactions. He's got things in mind far far scarier than a world of terrorists. As far as I can tell we will always be at the brink of destruction, yet all through this we will also always have the capacity to see heaven on earth. Your inquiry had much merit. Though I strive for good, I realize that even Satan is part of God's order of things. I wish that our existence was akin to that prior to fire and spears and fences, but I recognize reasons it is not. Most of my thought centers around ethics. I did not pray for the lightening that followed the towers, but see that it clearly makes this an illustration of 'the Tower' tarot card, a card about illumination coming from the devastation of mans enterprises. If the dream that put me in tears an hour before the WTC event bears any truth (I had asked to understand the crucifixion), then even Jesus made big well intended mistakes up till the resurrection.
jkiehart	(reply to Brian) posted 17-Sep-2001 2:44pm   I just can't get over how interesting and good it is. I picked it up initially to look over Revelations, and now I'm reading it constantly. Not in any order, though, I just flip from section to section in random order, but I can definitly see myself reading the whole thing given enough time. Some passages are very hard for me, and I'm trying to keep in mind that the translation might be wrong, but this struck me: This is the Lord's Prayer I learned: Our Father/Who art in heaven/Hallowed be thy name/Thy kingdom come/Thy will be done/On earth, as it is in heaven/Give us this day our daily bread/and forgive us our trespasses/as we forgive those who trespass against us/And lead us not into temptation/but deliver us from evil/Amen Okay, in my New King James version, the "trespasses" part is, okay, are you ready for this? "Forgive us our debts As we forgive our debtors..." Whoo hoo! How do ya' like them apples?
jkiehart	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 17-Sep-2001 2:51pm   It's through prayer that I'm having a hard time condoning any sort of retaliation whatsover. It's impossible for me, just impossible, for me to pray to God for someone's death. I could wish it Metaphysically (though *sigh* I did that once, and it was granted. No joke. Never again...), but my thoughts are aimed towards God now, not the universe in general. I don't know, KR. Jesus sure says a lot about turning the other cheek. Bless those who curse you... I need guidance. I don't know what to think and feel and pray for. To quote the pop icon jewelry, "What would Jesus do?" He would take it. And ask for more. I don't know. I could use some help here.
Brian	(reply to jkiehart) posted 17-Sep-2001 3:16pm   The Lord's Prayer appears in two places that I know of: Matthew 6: 9-13 and Luke 11: 2-4. Each is slightly different. The King James version is different from the Revised Standard version, which gives rise to the criticism of many. If we can't trust the words and wording of something as simple as the Lord's Prayer, what other parts of the Bible have been translated differently. I used to have problems with the "Last Words of Jesus". Matthew 27: 46 and Mark 15:34 agree. However Jesus cries out unrecorded words after this in both Matthew 27:50 and Mark 15:37. Luke 23:46 ("Father, in thy hands, I command my spirit.") and John 19:30 ("It is finished.") are different. John may be the most accurate because Jesus had just been give vinegar by someone, thus someone was very physically close to Jesus at the time He said "It is finished." I leave it to the scholars to debate.
jkiehart	(reply to Brian) posted 17-Sep-2001 3:20pm   Okay, WHY are there four different accounts of the life and death and Jesus? I'm not getting that. I can't believe I went to catechism for years...
Brian	(reply to jkiehart) posted 17-Sep-2001 3:35pm   Adding to your comments to KR. What would Jesus do? I think any dedicated reader of the Bible and/or person trained in the Christian religion knows what already. To me it is a major theme about Jesus' time on earth. He was saying: "Look I know and you know, you can't be God(s), because I am. But you have to try to live by my example. I will forgive you when you fail, but try. You have to try to do what I would do." Aside from chasing the money changers outta the temple, all Jesus actions were benefical, caring and forgiving. Other than Ananías and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-10), all of the Apostles actions were benefical, caring and forgiving. So, we are to be benefical, caring and forgiving...very hard for us humans to do. One can not help but note that the "Love of money" plays heavily in the temple incident, Judas' betrayal and Ananías' and Sapphira's punishment. "Render unto Caesar..."
Brian	(reply to jkiehart) posted 17-Sep-2001 3:38pm   I have not idea why there are only four. No one has ever explained it to me.
Brian	(reply to jkiehart) posted 17-Sep-2001 3:41pm   I am no Biblical scholar by any means, you need to go to some websites or to church or a university to ask the authorities. I am only more familiar with the Bible than I was two years ago. I am happy that I am, but it does not make me an expert.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to jkiehart) posted 17-Sep-2001 8:40pm   There are several levels of prayer (not necessarily in order of significance): 0) pure surrender (eg. The resurrection) 1) desire followed by surrender. (eg. I want this, I'll let it go, your will be done. ) 2) emotionally detached will. (eg. parting of the red sea) 3) asking that prayers be granted. 4) desire without spiritual awareness. 5) fascination and intrigue. 6) belief that things are a certain way though you would wish otherwise. In the first couple weeks of my path long ago, I would let mosquitos feed off me, I would let my kids smear mayonaise on me. My wife thought I was just playing and didn't see the painful humiliation and restraint involved. Renunciation of many superficial concerns started my awakening. Presuming (with some guidance that more renunciation was better (and mistrusting the authority or existence of anything I was experiencing)) I proceeded to a renunciation of my life (perceptual, emotional, practical, spiritual, and finally physical) in self sacrifice after which it was explained to me that my guiding spirit allowed me this course because I was too stubborn to learn through other methods. One who practices turning the other cheek properly is not simply inviting desecration (but that will happen if that's what your aiming for), instead they have a knowledge that their entire experience is God, as well as a reflection of their inner being. If they are on a really high level, they are talking to God, not a person (there are many intermediate levels of that). Knowing they are one with the eternal planning frees them to work on the welfare of lower levels of reality. They don't just blindly let whatever happens to them. On the other hand, there is a very heavenly plane in which you do just that. You surrender all independent thought, and others (God) will ask for your help or help you in such a way that you need not make a single decision. Right off, I would say to not pray for vengeance of any sort. But I don't know. I've been working all week trying to figure out what to pray for myself. The last thing I came up with was that the mastermind of this terrorism have an epiphany, publicly apologize for his actions, preach peace, and spend his life in hiding dedicating all his resources to making amends. I dialogue with spirit on this. The first rebuttal was "so, you're just going to let him off scot free?" I don't know what to tell you. If you wish harm on another, it will come back to you. If you wish fair justice upon another (whatever that might be) perhaps only fair justice will return to you (but I haven't discerned if that happens). It might be wise to not concern yourself with it at all. I had to tune out international events for a few years. Share love with all those you meet. Do not concern yourself with people you do not know. That was actually part of a seminar being recited the day I had my awakening. It went on something about there always have been and always will be plagues and such. I think that was about a few things: It is difficult to be a beacon if you search the world for things to be miserable about; People have their own karma to work out, that is the nature of this planet; You do not truly know about anything except that in your minds eye. If god surrounds your experience with heaven, don't go asking 'but isn't there a hell too?' I can't even assure you Bin Laden exists; I have never met him in person or astrally. These are things that make sense to me from my earlier mystical experiences. In practical life I would have to say things like don't let your purchasing funds support companies with little regard for international communities. I have found that on what few occasions I have silently suspected foul play against me, my accusations turned out to be unjust, and if not, I was at least able to eventually see that events ultimately were on my behalf or a karmic return on prior thoughts. My mystical level has been increasingly involved with world affairs however. While I pass on to you my earlier lessons, I have new things to learn. What would Jesus do is an excellent line of thinking. It's also a lot easier than what would God do. I am so dismayed now that dark emotions and experiences exist, let alone pop into mind briefly. In that heavenly state I mentioned, they did not, however it was preceded by a great sorrow for things that were not going well and prayers to set them well. Again, as usual, I suppose my karma was to have that bestowed upon me that I wished for others. again, I think inviting personal suffering was far from what was intended, however it might have indicated a 'the buck stops here' attititude, meaning just because the boss yelled at you, you do not yell at your kids. Bad karma will cycle indefinitely if it is passed on. I do not even return it to one who attacks me. The last time I had someone yelling insults at me I merely looked him in the eyes with total compassion and he began repeating 'bless you'. I think this is what we all need to be doing. The children in the courtyard have begun exuberantly playing 'war'. It pains me so. They were not born with that sentiment, society taught it to them. Most of the tv stations now show plenty of soldiers. In WW1 we had many grim war photos. By Vietnam national media policy was to not show blood, as if people don't get hurt in war. In my experience compassion does involve suffering. It entails absorbing an understanding of an external worldview that is painfully flawed. I don't think the options are better though.
southernyankee	posted 17-Sep-2001 9:33pm   There's absolutley no reason to modify your everyday behavior. Maybe for the 1st week or so, but then go back to normal. After all, if we were to modify our behavior too greatly, the terrorists have already won!
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Brian) posted 17-Sep-2001 11:36pm   If I did not mention earlier, I had a dream about the resurrection an hour before the WTC event. I frequently ask the lord for guidance through dreams. That night I had participated over television in a transubstantiation ceremony, drinking a bottle primarily of 'taverna dei santi' but that included the dregs of many other red wines as well. I had only done this once before, and it was in a church long ago, not really of my own choosing in the deepest sense. I had decided that it was time for me to understand the crucifixion. I had been trying to grok that for 13 years, and how the logos had counseled me all these years never did entirely jive wih all Jesus preached, though I understood how it worked. My particular concern was the romans like stuff: to paraphrase 'I come not to make peace but war, to set brother against brother, and earth against spirit that you should be forced to see nothing but god or endure a hell.' My early training resembled this. I was not permitted to talk to people, only to hear god and be obedient. I lost my family and job over it. Fortunately things lightened up and i was able to reenter the realm of people after a painful year or two. When I found that god has easier, more cheerful paths I took issue upon learning some of the methods taught by christ resembled my path of (unnecessary?) hardship taught through the logos. Things like 'why hast thou forsaken me?' as his parting words never did make sense to me. I was hoping before I went to sleep to be shown a biblical experience and get some guidance (the personal timing of sunday's earthquake had me concerned (that was a mystical event in itself)). I had a dream of the resurrection. Your references were of much assistance. Apparently the governors mansion in which I was slaughtered was that of Pontius Pilate. Now I know who the women were too. (I knew in the dream one was Mary Magdalene). I didn't realize the quake and the temple torn asunder were part of the story, nor the gathered, or little details in my own physical life like the the quality of the wine. Anyhow, the main point here is that the final silent words were 'Lord, forgive what I have done here'. It was said because he had started religious battle, his people were still dying in spite of his sacrifice, he had spent his life in the intellectual logos, not the heart logos, and because his actions had led to his death, making him unable to further serve. (at that point he couldn't even blink). If I had known these to be his last words 13 years earlier, it would have made much more sense. To finish the dream, (I'm still skipping a lot, I could describe all the settings for instance) after this request for forgiving what he had done {in this frame of consciousness, he was one and the same as the continuing tragedy that life had become, and the request resembled asking to turn back time on events, his body being the last of his concerns}, he was then reassembled, in the arms of his followers who also held his feet, by a particle light which I have swam in before. It's like a gold snowstorm. One laughs in it's presence. This for me is the land of milk and honey. I had to part the red sea to get there. (Red energy is another visible force. It is a hateful love passion.) I have unintentionally reversed the compass polarity of part of my living room with it when hopelessly playing with the notion of teleportation. It is a battery energy (+ & -) mirrored celestially (black holes being the negative poles of the circuit) often described as the pillars of Boaz and Jacun (positive and negative creation), it is also the force behind the arc of the covenant. I stopped playing with that stuff because I wasn't sure if I should. For every advance I made, military science would match it with things like demos of the Star-Wars, Haarp tesla project which I witnessed and had some insider hints on (doubtfully anything they could get in trouble over, like telling a kid to notice that batteries had two ends, without telling them about electricity or appliances). And as I've mentioned, after waking up, crying for an hour till sunrise while writing the dream down, I turned on the radio to hear more from the lord on what the dream was about, just in time for first reports of the World Trade Center tragedy. Speaking of Star Wars, no one I recall noticed or cared that as an analogy for what we (the US) were doing, we were building death stars, not being jedi knights. That some pilot flew into our pentacle star shaped building surprises me none as far as contemporary folklore goes. Your reference to the money changers was seemly too. One devastated company spokesperson mentioned doing 5 trillion a day in trading. I may not care for their business, but the interviews are touching, their hearts are devastated by the losses to all their employees. This event is also the first time I've heard bush speak with his heart rather than sounding like reciting a highly engineered speech by rote. 'Lord, forgive what I have done'. I asked for it directly and will choose to believe that over several mismatched historical text accounts. I offer it to you as food for thought. I once heard that the last Hebrew words 'why hast thou forsaken me' in Mayan phonetically translates to 'I immerse myself in the pre-dawn of your eminence'. But that too was third hand info. I did like the sound of it much better though.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to jkiehart) posted 17-Sep-2001 11:42pm   Oh, btw, I had already been told from word on high that I don't have to do anything. I'm sure you don't have to. Just be a good person and keep striving higher as suits your joy and conscience.
jkiehart	(reply to Brian) posted 18-Sep-2001 1:40pm   Hmmmm....
Brian	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 25-Sep-2001 4:31pm   Have you ever received notice from the SC server that you have exceeded its capacity?
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Brian) posted 25-Sep-2001 5:25pm   No, but I get many other forms of online harrassment. Currently my web server has slowed down to much less than 1k while I'm working on website for a client. I'm thinking to refund his deposit and protect them from my battle. I'm going to be forced to leave the country at this rate. Everyday it's something new like having my car registration revoked for lack of thorough documentation. Such apparently is the cost of a clever spirit, compassion, and free speech.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to Brian) posted 25-Sep-2001 6:12pm   Yesterday, I couldn't even move my mouse without it entirely interefering with my radio (FM music) reception. That was the sort of thing that irritated me in the first place. My girlfriend is Iranian and visiting NY. It wouldn't surprise me if she goes through a big hassle on her return flight which I am supposed to pick her up from.
Brian	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 26-Sep-2001 9:36am   I am concerned to hear your girlfriend may suffer inappropriately due to the current world situation. Please know my prayers are with you both that you two do not experience a prejudice because of her national origin. The US still has much to learn about appreciating cultural diversity.