There have been several tests and they all show that the shroud can't be older than 600, 700 years.

I agree with you Maarteen (sorry if I spelt it wrong) up to a certain point. More recent American test have showed that fire, releasing carbons and toxinagens affected the age.
However, it is tempting to say that the original carbon-dating results are the "honest" ones

Last I heard, scientists had determined conclusively that the Shroud had been placed over a recently-deceased body about two thousand years ago, but because he hadn't been wearing a name tag, no more could be learned.

I lean towards believing. Carbon dating has been demonstrated to be unreliable. I have a little trouble imagining 13th century "technicians" capable of creating such an elaborate hoax. On the other hand, I'm somewhat suspicious of religious relics in general. From the information I've seen, this one looks fairly convincing.

No, and I don't think it matters one way or the other.

I don't know, however I don't really care if I know or not.

Good point, buddy. Thousands of Jewish men in there 30's were crucified at the time in the area.
Great observation
(Geez, I sound like my teacher!)

True, technology at that point was not evolved at all. About organized religion, alot of people I know feel the same way. But ponder this: Isn't it easier to not believe than it is to believe?

What if a LARGE number of people felt the way you do? Don't get me, wrong you're free to believe what you want and feel the way you want. But, if the world soon became indifferent, the Shroud would only be a cloth to wipe ones ass with.

Same thing as Jemmy

Probably. I suppose it depends on your circumstances, who you associate with. It is always easier to go with the flow.

Regarding your comment to drdt, if it was just some John Doe 30 something Jewish guy, how did his image become photographically imprinted on the shroud? My understanding of the shroud is that the image was supposed to have been created by the power of the resurrection. Also the blood stains apparently match the description in the Gospels. How many of these John Does were crucified wearing a crown of thorns and nails?

I'm not the world. I'm me.

Of course your you. No one can take that, or your opinions away from you. But, in these cases, its a what if situation. That's all I meant.

You see, that's fighting the other point. No person on this earth, crucified at the time, with thorns or not, have been able to create such an image. That just proves that a superior being was involved.
On a personal note, I believe it is Jesus for all the reasons. Above all because of my faith, but the facts are there, we just have to look at them with an open mind.

I still don't think the Shroud has any special meaning even if it is what some people claim it to be. Obsessing over a really old burial cloth seems a bit much to me.

Well, if the world became indifferent, then I suppose someone would have to try and convince them otherwise, but there will probably always be believers.

I don't recall exactly, but it was something along the lines of, a body gives off a lot of chemicals shortly after death; hair and clothes absorb them. So anywhere the shroud touched skin there is this chemical soaked into the cloth. Over an extended period of time the chemical decays, leaving a noticeable stain. The neat thing is that, because body hair absorbs the chemicals, the stain actually shows his beard.

As far as the crown goes (and this is just me speculating now), he could have been wearing a headband or something which would give an effect to resemble a crown. Or else it was King-of-the-Jews season. There were a lot of so-called prophets in circulation that century. And of course Jesus wasn't given special treatment on the cross - if he was nailed up, probably so was everybody else that year.

Star2b: no matter who believes in what, a 2000-year-old piece of canvas will always be an inappropriate toilet tissue.

I think you're trying too hard. I mean, I can understand being skeptical, but you're just being silly.

I think drdt has some really good points in that argument. I see no reason why a belief in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin is important in any way whatsoever.

The reason some people obsess over this cloth is because it may be the only artifact of our Lord present today. Some people hold this fact to be amazingly, maybe the only reason they are living today. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but some people really hold Religion dear to their hearts.

I'D LIKE TO THANK EVERYONE AT THIS POINT FOR SHARING THEIR OPINIONS. THIS IS MY FIRST SURVEY, AND BECAUSE OF YOU, I'M PROUD TO CALL IT A SUCCESS.

Yes, you did very well for a first timer!

Don't know and don't care.

You can hold religion (or religious beliefs, anyway) close to your heart without having to have a physical object such as the Shroud on which you focus those feelings.

I never said it was important. I don't think it is important either. I do think it is making for an interesting debate however. I'm all for being skeptical, I thought drdt's chemical/headband argument was a bit over-reaching though. I'm not convinced either way, but I would be interested in hearing some PLAUSIBLE arguments against authenticity.

The one thing is, no one can recreate it. No one has been able to accurately explain away the "Negative" effect that the photo's had on it. And the fact that it is a full body picture, with details that would have been unknown to the people of the 3rd century! There are too many unexpainables. I find it so interesting! My faith does not need it, but I do find joy in the picture! Read about the Shroud here

Oh, my comment about how important it is was really directed at star2b_ca. To be honest, I've never even seen what the Shroud looks like.

The minute I learn how to paste pics, you'll see.

Let say you marry your significant other and for 10 years they did not as hint that they love you, or give you a gift to represent this love. Could you still hold them dear to your heart?

Thank you Maarten!

That was the reason for creating this survey. Not to pin religion against religion, belief against belief. But to have a topic of debate that no one (hopefully) would get offended by.

I don't see the connection here. I don't have to have anything physical to know that my wife loves me. It goes beyond anything physical. The same goes for faith.

I like the definition, "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". I think that defines it very well.

And just for the record, I'm not offended by this survey. I have no opinion about it either way.

No, the evidence I saw indicated that it was the Shroud of Turin is a medieval artifact and forgery. It was created during a period when a lot of other fake religious relics where created. The carbon dating evidence is pretty clear.

That's a beautiful quote. I think it symbolizes what everyone feels. And maybe it was a bad example. It's just that some people need something physical to cling on. Don't get me wrong. The emotional and psychological basis works just as well, but it is hard to believe in something that you don't see. So, they use the Shroud as physical proof. Maybe it is not as relevant, as, for example, seeing Jesus himself, but it is one of few things we have.

I agree that it was very convincing, but latest tests in USA prove that the two fires (one being in 1359) released fumes, disrupting the constant rate of decay. Lightly touching carbon-dating, if I'm not mistaken, they use the isotope Carbon14, which is present in any living object. Now this Carbon 14 is present for 5700 years (or something called a half-year), and when the object dies, it decays at a constant rate until it is finally at 0 (which makes the object a totally non-existant after 5700 yrs). Now, once the fires occured, the rate disrupted, adding years to the actual age.

My understanding is that the shroud is a contaminated specimen. It has been handled be 1000s of people over the years (it was a kind of religious tourist attraction in the middle ages). Parts of it were even repaired (I believe, after the fire your mentioned). I'll admit that this does cast some doubt on the exactness of the Carbon 14 dating. But, despite the contamination, my understanding is that it would only affect the dating by less than a century or so because the contaminate is still a small fraction of the total material. Also, combined with the lack of history the shroud has before medieval times and the historical record that tells of many religious artifact forgeries at that time, I still think it's likely a fraud.

I don't see how a fire could disrupt C-14 decay. It might add some contaminate (newer C14), but not enough to change the dating much.

There was another bit of evidence... the shroud was made out of textiles (a certain pattern in the weave) that were not used around the time of Jesus, but were used in medieval times.

My understand was that Carbon 14 dating is based on the ratio of C-14 (which is an unstable radioactive isotope and decays into N-14 over time) versus Carbon 12 (which is stable and does not decay). The limit of our ability to detect C-14 ends at about 58,000 years.

C-14 has a half-life of 5730 years. This means that after 5,730 years half of the original amount has decayed, but you still have half. Then over the next 5730 years you lose another 1/2 to decay. So after 11,460 years, you'd have 25% of your original amount. And this goes on until the C-14 is exhausted (some time after 58,000 years).

I found this web page on C-14 dating... it's pretty good:
http://www.museum.mq.edu.au/eegypt2/carbdate.html

I think the shroud is more a question of faith, and thus an appropriate artifact for religion. Of course science will dispute it, but true believers in the religion will have faith that it truly was Jesus, the savior, the son of God, who once wore the shroud.

Of course, I think Jesus was mostly made-up as well.

until you mentioned the website, i thought you were a science teacher and my thoughts were "what have i gotten myself into". like i mentioned, i am not an expert on carbon dating. in fact my science teacher had mentioned it lightly and so i did not know the exact dates, or if i was confusing my info.
however we understood each other, right?!?
i agree that the shroud is an object of belief and in fact, is the one reason why I believe in it.
contributing to the survey, arguing either which way, helps in the development process and so for that i am eternally grateful.
once again, i would like to mention that i hope i do not insult anyone by issuing this survey.
(not a bad survey for a 15 year old, huh?)

A greater than 60% rating is very good for a survey.

Hell no! That is a bunch of crap. Tell me, are there any religious cults who believe that? If so then please excuse my response.

Most of the stuff in the bible is based loosely on history so i have an easier time accepting that, but this shroud of turin is a crock of crap. I give this survey a "bad" rating

Well thank you very much bill! I'll be sure to visit yours and give a good rating too!

Well, loser, there's a few things I've got to let you in on.
1) I take great pride on the first survey I created and if you have the balls to sit there and insult the things your small little brain can not grasp, and think you'll get away with it, you've got another thing coming.
2) I see that you might not believe in the Shroud. Hell, you can be atheist for all I care. So just give your opinion and shut your trap.
3) If you knew anything about the voting process, you would realize it's not only based on the question. Meaning, you disagree with the question asked, you DO NOT give a bad vote. Voting includes technical work, vocabulary, grammar, rate of response and a whole bunch of things that I'm sure you probably can't even pronounce.
4)I dare you to say that the shroud of turin is a crock of crap again...no, wait. That's your opinion, and I must swallow it. However if you ever take it a step farther and call this SURVEY a crock of crap, you will never, ever, hear the end of it. We Italians have an attitude to boot, so if I were you I'd just shut your mouth.

wow.. i apologized BEFORE i read this.. the apology stands. BUT... i HAVE to give this survey a bad rating, because in my opinion it's not worth discussing. Like you said: it's just MY opinion. Who am i, right? Keep in mind average surveys get 57% approval or so. I checked out the stats.. i only give em 51%.. so i'm a bit picky. There's ALWAYS gonna be someone who doesn't like your survey for whatever reason (or non-reason) no matter what. So maybe my harsh response helped u realize that.

Yes. And not because my faith makes me, really. I just believe.

Yes, there is a religious cult out there who believes it, it's called Christianity.

It's quite possible the Catholic church officially endorses the shroud of turin... they are pretty well known for worshipping trinkets and icons. I doubt that most of the other large main-stream Christian churches have made a decision one way or the other about it.

OMG! I am so sorry! I did not see your apology or else I wouldn't snap at you the way I did! Like I said, we Italians have a tendency to get a bit...tough. Your letting me know did help me realize, of course, but I felt (and still feel) that if your opinion is that you do not believe the shroud of turin is real, fine. But don't give the SURVEY itself a bad rating. Again, the rating goes beyond the question itself. It has to do with structure and so on.
I also apologize about the revenge bit on your survey. I bet others are probably hissing my name right now. But I was pissed off. My work is my pride and when someone puts it down, well, I get a bit hot-headed.
Sorry again!

Sss! We hates it my preciousss.

Don't give me a heartattack! I feel bad enough!

I believe that no one should put down what you believe in. It's just as bad as putting down your race or your opinion. If you believe in the Shroud, do not let anyone take that away from you.

Hey!!! We do not put our faith in little trinkets and icons! And if you want to call it that, the reason we TURN to these things is as a symbol of our faith. We do not depend solely on them. We believe that the cross, lamb, 3 leaf clover...all are symbols that represent our faith...that makes it easier to visualize what we already believe. And if I'm not mistaken, Christianity is not the only religion that does that. Hindou had=s the Sacred Elepant (I'm sorry, I don't know the proper name). Boudhism has the Chinese Man (sorry!) Juddaism has the menorah.
Must I go on?

Hey star, I thought it over and changed the rating I gave your survey. I think maybe I am a bit too harsh, I have to remember people take these things personally. ;) Let me explain in detail why I don't believe in the Shroud:
There are a lot of icons used by churches, so many in fact, and a lot of them just SEEM like they would be hoaxes. I mean it just seems like a temptation people have to come up with hoaxes. The Shroud SEEMS like a hoax too. I have no scientific evidence to back this up. It mentions in the bible that Jesus was wrapped in linens and placed in a tomb, and that he was resurrected. But it doesn't say that he left an imprint on the linens.. or that someone saved them, or that we should worship them. So for my answer I put that my faith calls me not to believe. I choose what I believe in based on the effect it has on my life. If I find myself believing in something that doesn't help me I should discard it. For some I can see the shroud as helping them to believe that Jesus was really resurrected. For me I don't think it would help me as much as say personal meditation in deciding what i believe.

Don't worry, I was just joking. All is forgiven (for my part anyway).

No way.

First off, you are so not a loser! Why did you give yourself that name! You're the sweetest guy
2) I see what you're trying to say. I do not want to convince you to believe what I believe. It's your choice to make. I just stand by and play devil's advocate for discussion purposes.
3)You're right. If you see that something is not bringing you anywhere, and even worse, pulling you back, let go of it. All that baggage is not worth it.
4)However for some people that icon is needed, simply to visualize. No one forces them to believe or idolize the Shroud. That was all made on individual decisions. Slowly, more and more people gathered and it grew to a large population of the Christian faith. But at the base of it, no one was forced.
5)Thanks for the change. Come to think of it, you didn't have to. Just having you add to the discussion is good enough for me.

No way what Befkoning? Please, expand. I can't really comment without knowing what you mean.

"No way, I don't believe the Shroud of Turin really does show the imprint of Jesus Christ" would be my best guess

Well, supplicant, I would assume the same, but give him time to comment. He might suprise us both. I bet, though, what he has to say would be intellectually moving.

It amazed me how it's so "okay" to trash . Catholicism. No one in his or her right mind would EVER trash Judaism, or Buddhism, or any other major religion. It's open season on Catholics.

I think it's the hats. It's hard to respect a religion when its high officials wear hats like the pope's.

No, of course not. This is more Catholic idol worshiping crap.

I am Catholic. And even though our faith gets picked on, we are not the only ones. The Jews were persecuted in WWII. Wars to this day are going on for religious and ethnic beliefs. I think generalizing made your comment just a tad far-fetched.

Yuppers, the hats are really somethin'!

What is this thing, anyway?

THE SHROUD OF TURIN IS TO BELIEVED TO BE THE BURIAL CLOTH OF JESUS CHRIST. IN THE 13TH CENTURY IT WAS FOUND BY A FARMER WITH THE IMPRINT OF JESUS' BODY IMPRINTED ON IT. IT SPARKS CONTREVERSY BECAUSE SOME ARGUE IT WAS MADE BY A PAINTER, SOME SAY IT'S THE REAL THING.

Oh. Interesting. Thanks.

What's weird is that you asked 3 months after the survey was initially issued. Ah well, its never too late to learn.

Yeah, well, I'm weird.

in a good sense, right?

Oh, I don't know...I just do weird, strange things sometimes...not really good or bad.

It's good to be a little wierd. If someone is 100% normal, they are very boring in my eyes!

People say I am eccentris but it's a complement!

Eccentric people are cool! I don't think there is a normal, because if you were normal, you would be weird, because everyone else is weird...I don't know. I'm sort of weird in a spacey kind of way.

Of course you're not. You're gifted (Ha) That's my cheap joke. There's more of em where they came from.

Yeah, according to most people, I'm "special". But that is because at one time a friend and I were called stupid...it's a long story.

I know what you mean. But do you ever get insulted, even if it is just a joke?

Yeah, all the time. But usually if someone insults me, other people stand up for me, even though I stand up for myself as well. The person comes out of it feeling like an idiot for being mean to me, so I don't usually have bad things said to me. It's really weird.

fires do not affect carbon dating...
there is also NO human DNA found on the entire thing (from sweat, blood, saliva, etc.)
It is a masterful fake.

That's cool. The people I'm friends with hardy insult and the ones I'm not are just ignorant so everything works ou fine. Uhm, JHem, I was wondering how to remove myself from surveycentral. I love all the people here and the surveys are amazing, but I have hardly any more time and it's becoming more of a drudgery than anything else. If you know, please inform me.

In my opinion, it can't be a fake. Even if carbon does not affect results and there was no DNA (which I also disagree with), the artisans of the time did not have the technology and the skills to do such a thing. The materials needed to create the shroud could not be found anywhere nor could it be created. Unless the man dug up a 1300 year old grave and take the decompositions and smeared them to for a body (which is also impossible since the body is 100% dust after less than a century)

Um, I guess you just log off and don't log on anymore. I can undestand what you, mean by not having much time, I am really bust lately too. You could ask Bill.

And I just thought I would mention, people do sort of insult me a lot. They do it by accident, laughing at things I say, making innocent comments on my intelligence, etc. It isn't exactly insults, but you know what I mean?

There are some bodies that are centuries old that are still fully intact, or partially so. Not every body decomposes at the exact same rate, especially if they have been ritually prepared. In that time period in which we are speaking of & in that general area, people revered their ancestors & the dead, some better than those living. Forensic science is one of my hobbies, I like watching shows that show how Homicide detectives solving how a person died, reading books on the subject, mummies, etc. Death is just as fascinating as life is to me. I am in no way saying that I am an expert, this is only what I’ve learned through studying the sciences.
There will always be a few cases that exceed the norm, however just because there is a norm doesn't mean that something out of the norm has to be fabricated....
I think the "shroud" is like the windows, walls, food items, etc that really religious people's imaginations *See* faces, crosses, holy items in. Faith is a wonderful thing, but some people can become fanatic about it. If a person looks hard enough, you can see faces in anything…if you need to believe that it is real, then do so. I have no ill thought towards anyone who does. I just think that it was either some sort of rare, yet fully *natural* occurrence of color/shading in the fabric itself (remember, they did not have bleaching back then that could make all the cloth in one piece of fabric the exact same shade of white). Or someone in the 13th century was a genius at art as well as forgery, and thought this as a great and profiting trick of the mind & people’s faith. Michelangelo was a master at forging much older artist’s works before anyone actually paid him for his own talent. He was caught only once (because he became very sloppy), and did serve time in jail…this is documented; I’m not making this up.
Miracles do sometimes happen, but I do not see this as one of them…the shroud hasn’t any of the evidence that any of the founded, religious based, *true* miracles do have.

Who's Bill. I feel bad enough I haven't been on for almost a month. I'm sorry, though. I had so much fun and I learned many intresting things. The minute I figure out how to log off, you'll be sure to read a nice long farewell letter.

I agree fully with the aspect of those fanatics with religion. But don't you feel that its better that they fanaticize (does that word exist?) over religion and not over drugs, power, and maybe over a person? The fact, I feel , that people are out there forcing people NOT to believe (I'm not claiming that you're doing so) actually forces the person to cling harder and seek more for things that may or may not be there. Yes, there may be artisans excellent at forgery and yes, maybe the shroud is fake. I'm just here playing devil's advocate.
Frankly I believe the Shroud is real. I believe in all the miracles that Christ performed for that is what my religion asks me to. This miracle happened more than once. It is said that when Jesus was carrying the cross up the mountain, Veronica wiped Jesus' face to remove the blood. On the cloth, His face appeared. Again, some argue its not true. But I believe so. And if it happened then, why couldn't it happen with the Shroud of Turin.
About mummification. That was mostly related to the Eygptians. As you know, several balms, herbs, potions and liquids were added during the mummification. During Christ's time and in the location of Jerusalem, bodies were wrapped, yes, but that's it. They were then placed in tombs. Nothing fancy. Therefore, mummification couldn't have happened.
Decomposition does have different rates. But we're talking 1300 years. By then, surely the body is either dust or bacteria.

Bill is the creator of this site. I think to log off, you just have to click sign off, and that's that. Or maybe not, I don't know.

TO EVERYONE!
IT'S BEEN A FUN RIDE, BUT IT MUST COME TO AN END. I FEEL THAT I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH THOSE WHO PARTICIPATE ON MY SURVEYS. I CAN MAKE EXCUSES, BUT NOTHING JUSTIFIES WHY I CAN'T WRITE ANYMORE. TIME IS PRECIOUS AND, FRANKLY, I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH OF IT. THEREFOR, THIS IS THE END OF IT.
I WON'T BE CANCELLING MY ACCOUNT (MAINLY BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW) SO IF YOU FEEL MY SURVEY IS A PLACE THAT GETS YOU IN CONTACT WITH ANYONE ELSE, FEEL FREE TO USE IT. HOWEVER, DON'T EXPECT ME TO BE WRITING BACK.
I WANTED TO THANK EVERYONE FOR HELPING ME SINCE OCTOBER 1ST (THE DAY MY FIRST SURVEY WAS ISSUED).
JEMS, TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF AND KNOW THAT THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN GUYS.
KRISTAL_ROSE, YOUR ADVICE HAS GUIDED ME THROUGH SINCE DAY ONE AND YOUR WORDS OF WISDOM ARE AN INSPIRATION. I KNOW I DON'T SPEAK FOR MYSELF WHEN I SAY YOU ARE EXTREMELY RESPECTED FOR YOUR WONDERFUL INPUT.
MAARTEN, REMEMBER THAT WHEN I BECOME THE FAMOUS STAR I TOLD YOU ABOUT, YOU'LL BE THE FIRST ON MY VISIT LIST! A PROMISE IS A PROMISE!
MIREILLENS, GOOD LUCK, AND DON'T GIVE JEMMY TOO MUCH OF A HARD TIME. SHE'S YOUNG!
IAMLOSER, THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME REALIZE THAT ALTHOUGH SOMEONE DOES NOT LIKE SOMETHING I HAVE DONE, IT SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN PERSONALLY. THERE ARE HITS AND THERE ARE MISSES.
SO, THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH. OH! I REALLY HOPE THE PEOPLE I MENTIONED CAN READ WHAT I SAID. IF ITS POSSIBLE TO SPREAD THE WORD TO THOSE PEOPLE (JEMS, I KNOW I CAN TRUST YOU TO DO THAT FOR ME). THANK YOU.
GOOD-BYE!


ANGELA VELLA
AKA
star2b_ca

No it was just a tire mark from a chariot.