| User | Comment |
|---|
| daver | | posted 22-Feb-2000 11:59am |
Generally speaking, they've got the most power in the US and get the most blame for the myriad woes of the US. I don't think I'd call that oppression, even though the blame is probably not proportionate. |
| eris | | posted 22-Feb-2000 12:20pm |
The poor ones are. |
| natsim | | posted 22-Feb-2000 12:46pm |
I was going to say "No, how ridiculous", but there are poor white men who are oppressed in the US; for example, there are white men who work as farmers, there are white men who work as cleaners, there are white men who work in cubicles for large corporations. They are oppressed.
In general though, white men are not oppressed compared with men of colour, and white men are not oppressed compared with white women. |
| ILJ | | posted 22-Feb-2000 1:41pm |
There are parts of our culture where it does appear that some white men are being made to pay for the evils of their predecessors, but I don't think it's as widespread as some would have us believe. Maybe a few white guys have been shut out of jobs so that the company could "diversify" (a practice I strongly oppose), but the amount of press those few incidents receive makes the situation seem worse than it is.
I know some people say that it's only fair that white men be discriminated against, given what is perceived to be "their history." But do two wrongs really make a right, even in this case? If they do, it leads me to think back on my grade school days and wonder if I wouldn't be justified in finding a few black guys and kicking their asses. Lord knows "they" did it to me back then, so it's only fair, right?
As for whether "other sexes/races are being oppressed by white men," well that's a yes and no for me. If you try to find someone who is being oppressed by white men, you'll find them. But this sentence carries a racist undertone that I'm not comfortable with, and as such I can't accept it entirely. I'm a white man and I haven't oppressed anyone. I'll bet there's not a white man on this list who has denied a person a job, a home, or an education on the basis of their skin tone. Most white men (and most black women, and most left-handed Argentine hermaphrodites, etc...) are fine people. Some of them suck, and there's a societal temptation to paint white men in general with the same brush. What percentage of crack users are black? Pretty high probably? But I'm certainly not going to say that black people are crack-smokers, and it's equally unfair to say that white men are oppressors. |
| cpierson | | posted 22-Feb-2000 2:52pm |
There are white men being oppressed in the U.S., but _not_ because they are white or male. Put a woman, or a black man, in their place, and they'd be just as oppressed, if not more so. |
| Oscar | | posted 22-Feb-2000 4:36pm |
mainly the gay ones  Whte men are probably the least oppressed of all people. |
Frostbrand  | | posted 22-Feb-2000 5:19pm |
NO! |
| Frostbrand | | posted 22-Feb-2000 5:21pm |
Well, now that I think about it, white men as a whole aren't, but if the white man happens to be gay, or wiccan, or neo-paganist, or jewish, then the answer is yes. |
bill   | | posted 22-Feb-2000 6:28pm |
Help! Help! I'm being oppressed! |
| mandy | | posted 22-Feb-2000 11:07pm |
 You come and work one day at my job and then tell me white males are oppressed. Seriously though...we're all fudging oppressed. Look around. |
| ILJ | | posted 23-Feb-2000 8:33am |
I'm not oppressed. I may not be free to do anything and everything I want to do, but I'm far from oppressed. |
| seven | | posted 23-Feb-2000 8:42pm |
Everyone is oppressed |
| drdt | | posted 23-Feb-2000 10:24pm |
TwM: I take it your co-workers are good examples of a subset of white males who are not oppressed? |
| mandy | | posted 23-Feb-2000 10:51pm |
My customers actually. and the owner of the business I work for. My co-workers are women.
|
| king_of_cups | | posted 23-Feb-2000 11:14pm |
White males are the only ones that can be legally oppressed. |
SueBee  | | posted 27-Feb-2000 1:34am |
Ha! You've got to be kidding!! Although I know some who'd like to think that. |
| mary | | posted 28-Feb-2000 7:47pm |
I think the word oppressed is a little harsh. I don't think white men are being oppressed, if anything women are, and I wouldn't even go as far as to really say that and mean it. |
| Jeanne | | posted 6-Mar-2000 12:59pm |
Yes, I do feel white men are being oppressed. The average white man is not oppressing anyone!!! The white man is being oppressed in many ways; freedom of speech (Rocker comes to mind), legal entry into colleges where grades are SUPPOSED to count, affirmative action (thankfully, is being put by the wayside in some areas and has lasted much too long). As I have stated before, I think white men are the life blood of this country. They are the brains and the brawn. Sorry, but that is the way I feel and I will not apologize. I foresee that if third world people were to completely take over this country, we will be just that, a third world country. |
| ILJ |
I try, you know? I really do try to be open minded and objective here, I try not to react emotionally, I try to stay level. Maybe it's because I'm not feeling well and my defenses are down, but I just can't take it anymore. I'm sitting here reading Jeanne's comments and there are tears on my cheeks. I can't express the sorrow I feel right now seeing this kind of insidious evil and hatred right before my eyes. White men are the brawns and the brains. Third world people ruining the country. Lord, if that's really the way You designed the universe, just send me to Hell now because there's no way I will ever bow down to a cruel and spiteful God, and I will never embrace race hatred in Your name. And if that's not the way it is, and You've created a universe where one's melanin count has nothing at all to do with one's human worth, please forgive us all.
Jeanne, you are entitled to your opinion. But frankly your opinion disgusts me beyond my ability to express and I hope never to have anything to do with you so long as I live. I don't need that kind of poison in my life. Now if you'll excuse me, I really need to go hold my son right now. |
| natsim |
Oh my God. |
| ILJ |
natsim: Now why didn't I say that? I envy your economy of language.  |
| natsim |
Because I didn't know what else to say.... it makes me grieve that the world can be such a hateful place....
I appreciate your comments, ILJ. |
| Maarten |
Oh men... has she done it again??? |
| ILJ |
vos: Trust me, you don't want to know. Just whistle a happy tune and enjoy the sunshine... |
| Maarten |
ILJ: Well, I just unfiltered her to see what upset you so much. Now I know I wish I hadnīt read it... I felt my blood boiling... (Is this an English expression too? Anyway, Iīm sure you know what I mean). |
| mandy |
*sighs*
|
| anonymous |
ILJ - I know that my cowardly anonymous opinion won't mean much to you, but I wanted to thank you anyway for saying what I am not able to. |
| ILJ |
Again, I'm sorry for rubbing you the wrong way, anon1. I'm sure I'll be apologizing for saying that in every other survey until some anonymous jerk starts sniping from the bushes again. It does seem odd to me, however, that you felt that your above statement was so radical, so potentially inflammatory, that you couldn't bear the thought of anyone here knowing it was you who said it. I just don't see what people are so afraid of. But I do sincerely apologize for generalizing and I regret if I hurt your feelings. |
| Maarten |
Does anyone at all appreciate anonymous comments?
I sure don't. |
they  |
I don't think there is anything wrong with the anonymous feature. I can see how it would be beneficial to the people who know other people that use SC. |
| Oscar | | posted 7-Mar-2000 10:33am |
They: That's normally why I use it...so the people that know me personally don't find out too much about me. |
| mandy |
Anonymous comments have their merit in situations where anonymity is crucial. To use anon to snipe or to be downright hateful is not a courageous use of anon. It is low, plain and simple. If you must snipe and be hateful, have the balls to back it up.
To share something you feel too personal to attach to your handle is the valid use.
I filter anon comments. It is because anon is usually used for the "wrong" reason and I got sick and tired of seeing it. |
| supplicant | | posted 8-Mar-2000 10:47am |
vos: yes "I felt my blood boiling" is also an expression commonly used in English. |
| anonymous | | posted 13-Mar-2000 3:34pm |
We are all being oppressed in one way or
another. If you live in this world, I don't
think you can avoid being oppressed by others. |
| king_of_cups | | posted 13-Mar-2000 6:24pm |
Jeanne is right.
If you were in a hospital and needed emergency care would you want the doctor that was the best and had the highest grades or someone who was hired under a specialty affirmative action plan? Think about it. |
| anonymous | | posted 13-Mar-2000 11:32pm |
If it weren't for affirmative action, that minority doctor that saved your life proabably wouldn't have been there. |
| phi | | posted 14-Mar-2000 1:21pm |
There are two ways to do "affirmative action". I will now justify both using the medical school analogy.
Method one, the "quota system", assumes that there are more qualified applicants than there are positions, and that some outside factor makes it valuable to discriminate among those applicants. For example, women tend to be less interested in science and thus underrepresented among the medical school applicants. But women patients might prefer to have women doctors, who by virtue of suffering from the same ailments, might understand their problems better even if they scored slightly less well than men on the admissions tests. Likewise, native Spanish speakers will get better medical care if they have a doctor who is a native Spanish speaker, and members of various ethnic groups will get better medical care from doctors with whom they feel comfortable, so on. The idea is that, assuming you've scored well enough to show that you understand the material, higher test scores do not necessarily make you a better doctor. And the goal is not to make it so that Jeanne has to have a Hispanic lesbian doctor, but to make it so that if someone actually *wants* a Hispanic lesbian doctor, they can find one.
Method two is to attempt to increase the applicant pool for certain minorities. Again, imagine that only white men tend to apply to medical school. This is at least partly because our society views science as a male province, and thus fewer women major in chemistry and biology in college. Ethnic differences in the value of education also affect the applicant pool. A marketing campaign encouraging qualified candidates in minority groups to apply for positions will make a stronger applicant pool, and will probably result in fewer white males getting in, even if no attention is paid to race during the admissions decision process at all. This method does not require an outside motivating factor like the desire of women to have women doctors that I mentioned above -- it can be motivated purely by the desire to reach the potentially excellent medical students who would otherwise never have become doctors at all, and the fact that more of these "hidden treasures" are minorities because any applicant, qualified or not, is less likely to apply if they are a minority. |
| Frostbrand | | posted 14-Mar-2000 5:11pm |
phi: Brilliant point! Well stated! |
| Gamera | | posted 14-Mar-2000 6:26pm |
Better grades do not necessarily mean better doctors, for one thing, and for another thing, doctoring is not like auto mechanics- it takes a varied and diverse population of medical people, who might all look at a problem differently, to find the right path to explore. Having a diverse population of doctors (or teachers, or politicians, or lawyers, or police officers, or CEOs) is its own reward. It's not that you want black or hispanic professionals just to reach some political goal, it's that you want a diverse population of professionals because more view points and more compassion for different segments of the population will bring about a greater professional field overall. |
| daver | | posted 14-Mar-2000 8:17pm |
**topper: I'd say that doctoring is very much like auto mechanics, which is not to say that you want a homogeneous group of doctors but rather that you would also want a heterogenous group of auto-mechanics. Then again, I always think mechanics are under-rated. |
| jonathan | | posted 15-Mar-2000 11:57am |
daver: I agree. I just brought my car into a dealer for service (cuz they're close) and they said I needed more stuff in service than the car is worth! I'll take a heterogenous group of mechanics any day of the week so I can find the one who will give me the best value. |
| Gamera | | posted 15-Mar-2000 12:03pm |
fair enough, y'all, about auto-mechanics. It's hard to find a good example of something that you want a homogeneous population of... hmmmmm... I guess that tells me something |
| daver | | posted 15-Mar-2000 12:16pm |
**topper: I frequently want a homogeneous population of yeast.
**jonathan: I've had Charles River SAAB recommended to me a number of times. I doubt they're cheap, but they're apparently quite good. |
| jonathan | | posted 15-Mar-2000 3:01pm |
daver: That's where I brought my car. The work they do is good (and pricey), but they recommend a lot of work that in my opinion - and that of my preferred mechanic, 100 miles away - is not entirely necessary. |
| king_of_cups | | posted 16-Mar-2000 4:20pm |
Phi: well spoken points. However, is it fair to take a high test scoring white male and tell him that although he worked very hard, and did what he was supposed to, someone with lower test scores is going to take his place?
I ran into a lot of discrimination when I was looking for an engineering job in '93 and it will take a long long time to get over it. I ended up with a good job in the end but it was very difficult to get. |
| Gamera | | posted 16-Mar-2000 4:30pm |
k-o-c Did anyone actually tell you that? How do you know that you were discriminated against, rather than simply not qualified (for reasons other than test scores)? |
| ILJ | | posted 16-Mar-2000 5:00pm |
Ideally (perhaps utopially if that's a word, which it's not), I think that a private company should be able to hire or not hire anyone they want for whatever reason. If a company wants to hire a person based primarily on their skin color, fine. We just can't make it mandatory that they hire on that basis. And if we're going to let Company A hire someone just because they're black, we can't get all huffy when Company B hires someone just because they're white. Of course, I realize that this concept will lead to far more discrimination against minorities than against whites, so it's not entirely workable in a present-day real world situation. But someday maybe... |
| phi | | posted 17-Mar-2000 11:27am |
king_of_cups: is it fair to tell anyone who'd make a good doctor that although they worked very hard, and did what they were supposed to, someone else is going to take their place? No. But there are fewer spots than there are qualified applicants and someone is going to have to lose. In the case of something like medical school, where the choices are made for the public good and not for the good of the doctors, the question shouldn't be whether it's fair to the applicants but whether it's fair to the patients.
Testing high does not entitle you to anything, especially since most tests do not accurately distinguish between good and excellent. If you doubt me on this assertion go check out the IQ survey and tell me if you think the people who scored 160 are really any smarter than the people who scored 145. |
| pcpr | | posted 17-Mar-2000 2:08pm |
Thank you Phi, it's what I was trying to say and failing. |
| Frostbrand | | posted 17-Mar-2000 5:23pm |
I'm watching Office Space as we speak, and you know what? Smart people are the ones being oppressed! White, black, Islamic, whatever. If you're smart, you have to suffer. |
| king_of_cups | | posted 17-Mar-2000 5:37pm |
topper: Yes, in fact I was. After getting a rejection at one company I called the manager that told me that he wanted to hire me so that I could work for him to tell him about my rejection. He was pissed and went into a tear about what the company was doing with affirmative action and how all three people that interviewed me recommended that I be hired. He quickly caught himself and retracted his statement but it was his first and honest reaction and I believe it. Also what do you call it when companies only prescreen asian women, as one company did?
At this point test scores are what are used in many applications. I don't argue that test scores are a true indication as to intelligence. What I do argue is double standards.
You should all be happy that we disagree, that way we can have this diversity that makes us all special. |
| SueBee | | posted 18-Mar-2000 3:03pm |
Well, I'm catching up a little after the fact here, but I see that Jeanne finally hit a nerve with some of you. The same nerve she hit with me a long time ago. Now you know how I felt when I was ranting and raving earlier. And yet I fell that I was criticized for jumping all over her opinion. Yeah, she's entitled to her opinion, but I think it sucks in a major way, and people who think like that scare the hell out of me. I'm thankful that I have the right in this country to let her know that I disagree. |
| sequel | | posted 22-Mar-2000 12:13pm |
Yes, they are the most oppressed group of people on earth, except for the tooth fairy and Santa Claus and the aliens living in my ear. |
| pope_john_paul | | posted 22-Mar-2000 6:00pm |
We believe that perhaps the apology we issued earlier this month will help clarify some of the ideas raised here about the church and racism:
"In certain periods of history, Christians have given in to intolerance and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love, sullying in this way the face of the Church. . . . At times the equality of your sons and daughters has not been acknowledged, and Christians have been guilty of attitudes of rejection and exclusion."
-- Pope John Paul II, 3/12/00 |
| ILJ | | posted 23-Mar-2000 1:40pm |
pjp: I have to wonder how many Protestants are reading the Pope's comments today and counting them as just one more proof that they are superior to the Catholics. |
| Jeanne | | posted 26-Mar-2000 4:41am |
I appreciate all your comments. What makes some of you so angry to hear the truth? Does the truth hurt?
Why do we have to lower our standards in this country? Why should a minority, whether a person of color or a woman, if they can't make the grade, get either get a job or get into a college over a white man? Why should they, that automatically lowers our standards. This is what is happening in our country. Are you saying that a minority/or a woman can't make the grade? That is what is being said when there are quotas. We are fast becoming a third world country. And my comment about white men being the brain and brawn of this country, still stands. Why does this offend anyone? What color were the framers of our Constitution? W h i t e! What people made at least 85% of all the inventions that have helped mankind? W h i t e.
By what I am saying does not mean I dislike other people, but I say quit knocking the white man, because he is the brains and brawn of this nation.
I know many of you resent what I have to say, but I am very tolerant of other people, I would hope you could show me the same courtesy. |
| SueBee | | posted 26-Mar-2000 1:35pm |
Jeanne - Quotas were started because people of color who "made the grade" better than their white counterparts were being turned down because of their color. In a fair world, people would be judged just on their merits without regard to their race, sex, etc. The problem is that this sort of thing is nearly impossible to control with new laws. We seem to go from one extreme to the other. |
| ILJ | | posted 27-Mar-2000 11:39am |
Jeanne: What color were the people who slaughtered all those Jews in WWII? What color were the people who held slaves in this country? What color were the men who assassinated JFK, Martin Luther King, John Lennon, even Abraham Lincoln? What color were the people who conspired to smash Nancy Kerrigan's knee? What color were the people who lynched thousands of blacks in the American South? What color were the people who all but eliminated the native peoples who once inhabited North America? What color were the officers who directed the massacre at My Lai? What color were the perpetrators of the Spanish Inquisition? What color were the scientists who used blacks as guinea pigs for their syphilis experiments at Tuskeegee in the 50s? What color were the shooters at Columbine? What color was the Oklahoma City bomber? What color was the Unabomber? What color were over 99% of the serial killers in recorded history? Give me a list of names of the purveyors of evil from any "non-white race" of your choice and I'll match it ten times over with a list of equally evil white people. The brains and the brawn indeed.
I don't believe in judging people by the color of their skin, or in judging an entire group based on the actions of a few; but if we're going to get into it, white people do not come out of it all squeaky-clean, not by a long shot. By those standards, white people would clearly win out as the most destructive, murderous, and hateful "race" in the history of mankind. |
| mandy | | posted 27-Mar-2000 5:01pm |
The "human" race is naturally hateful as well as naturally kind, and basically selfish, every single one of us.
No one segment, due to the color of their skin or where on the planet they happen to be born, has the corner on the market of either hate or kindness. We are all so very complex. When we all admit this to ourselves and each other maybe we as a species can start to evolve intelligently and resolve our differences without murder and war.
or not.
I won't care, I'll be long dead before this ever comes to be....
and basically, I'm selfish, So if it doesn't effect or oppress me or my loved ones directly, right now....whatever.
I think many here might feel the same and be afraid to actually say it out loud.
or not.
|
| Frostbrand | | posted 27-Mar-2000 7:47pm |
ILJ: Can I quote you on that? |
| SueBee | | posted 28-Mar-2000 2:23am |
ILJ - Bravo!! |
| ILJ | | posted 28-Mar-2000 8:55am |
Brian: Sure, just so long as you add "What color was the guy who wrote this?" (kidding) |
| Frostbrand | | posted 28-Mar-2000 4:07pm |
I was thinking, the groups of people on this planet who have been opressed or enslaved are often the most free in expressing their culture. More eye contact, more emotion, more humanity! Maybe a little opression would be good for us stuck up white boys. |
| Maarten | | posted 28-Mar-2000 4:33pm |
Don't we have any black/asian members? I'd love to read their comments on what Jeanne wrote. |
| Frostbrand | | posted 28-Mar-2000 5:14pm |
ILJ: I'll be adding that quote to my website. Quotes Seven should be done in time for my May updates. |
| anonymous | | posted 28-Mar-2000 10:55pm |
I really want to read Jeanne and Kristal Rose going head to head... too bad Atzilute is gone! |
| ILJ | | posted 28-Mar-2000 11:27pm |
It occurs to me that I never did answer the question. In case Jeanne or anyone else is stumped as to what "race" it was that committed these and countless other atrocities against both God and man, let me spell it out for you. W h i t e! You want to be proud of your color? Fine, go ahead. I'm sure you'll look good in blood red. How anyone can take pride in being a member of the most godless, craven, and despicable class of societal rapists in history is beyond me. To paraphrase the late Frank Zappa, I may not be black, but there sure are a lot of times I wish I wasn't white. I am a Caucasian, but my source of self-esteem is what is inside me, it is not what is on my surface, and it is certainly not the long history of complete strangers whose surfaces happened to resemble my own. Fudge the white man, I'm pink. And pride doesn't even enter into it. Can I get an amen?!? See Brian, you went and encouraged me, and now I've ranted like a raving lunatic evangelist of some sort. That's the last time I accept a compliment from you! |
| mandy | | posted 29-Mar-2000 1:06am |
Amen brutha... |
| Maarten | | posted 29-Mar-2000 7:33pm |
Amen |
| SueBee | | posted 2-Apr-2000 10:39pm |
Amen! |
Strider  | | posted 13-Apr-2000 1:48am |
Is the person who created this survey a member of the KKK or something, because this sounds like some of there BULL CRAP!!!!! |
| Zang | | posted 24-May-2000 8:50pm |
Yes, and I'm the one who's oppressing them. BwooHaHaHahaha
(that was supposed to be diabolical laughter, did it seem convincing?) |
| mandy | | posted 24-May-2000 8:59pm |
*shakes her head* |
