Is the U.S. death penalty system biased against minority defendants?

the people who implement it, probably

I'm really not sure. There are way more minorities on death row than whites, but perhaps that stands to reason since there are more minorities in prison in general. So is that a result of racial bias? I don't know; it seems plausible that maybe minorities are committing a greater percentage of jailable offenses. Why would that be? Maybe poverty, which could be caused by racism or an assumption of racism, or a cultural malaise resulting from years of racism both real and inferred, or...the line of thinking goes on and on and ultimately it probably ends with racism, either as an immediate cause or a historical one. The same question could easily be applied to college admissions with much the same line of thinking ("but there are fewer minority applicants because their scores on standardized tests trend lower because mostly non-white schools are inadequate or whatever and so on..."). But does that demonstrate that the admission boards are racist? No, it's quite likely a matter of WFIWFO ("white folks in, white folks out"). And the same logic applies to death row, I would think. When it all boils down, I don't think the "death penalty system" is inherently racist, but the results in terms of racial percentages are almost certainly indicative of the effects of racism on a level or levels of our society that I'm not prepared to enumerate at this time. There, did I circumlocute that sufficiently?

ILJ: Could you put that in English please?

I don't think the racial injustice is limited to the US Death Penalty System, I think it's rampant throughout the US Judicial System. I do believe that minorities are punished more harshly for the same crime than white people.

When a person commits a serious crime, they should be incarcerated. Minority people commit more crime. Let us face it. Don't dance around it. Many people would say it is for one reason or another, or could it be they have more of a propensity toward crime? Who knows. I don't know. But, I am sick of hearing it is the white peoples fault for everything. I don't believe it. I am tired of hearing white people as being scapegoats for everything. It is an easy way out for those that don't know how to fix a problem, or knows the problem but know there is no way to fix it and/or just wants a handout.

yes

I think the US criminal justice system as a whole is biased against minority defendants, and that there is an additional bias specifically in capital cases against poor defendants. I suspect that most people who answer 'yes' thinking specifically of capital cases are confusing these two. If anyone cares I can elaborate on what I think these biases are.

OK, I have to elaborate for Jeanne's benefit that part of the anti-minority bias in the criminal justice system is that things black people do are more likely to be illegal, or to be felonies rather than misdemeanors, than things white people do. As examples, differences in punishment for crack vs. powder cocaine in similar quantities viz. popularity in the 1980s, or the illegality of marijuana but not tobacco viz. popularity in the teens and '20s, when respectively the laws in question were passed.

Our society is, thus our court system is, thus the "death penalty system" is.

Oops.. and now I have to filter Jeanne Hitler again!

not at all

I really don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. There are still a lot of bigots around.

vos: you might not agree with Jeanne, but at least she's just expressing an opinion, not trying to kill millions of people. I think the Hitler remark was way too strong.

I think "the system" may not be biased, but the way the system is used is.

vos - if you're going to filter someone, could you simply do it quietly and not mention it to everyone else?
You seem to be using filtering as a threat or insult towards other users. Maybe we don't care who you filter...

Factors in crime such as motive and prior criminal record are difficult to quantify. Due to the nature of the legal system, it is very easy to give different punishments for very similar crimes. I think the legal system is biased against minorities and also poor people in that the death penalty will be given to minorities more readily than to white defendants for the same crime.

Gilly: The way she talked about whites just reminded me of the guy I mentioned.

Jeanne: Minority people commit more crime? That's a racist statement if I ever heard one. Consider this. A white man kills a black women, gets life without parole, or gets his death sentence commuted. A Black man who kills a white gets a needle in the arm, and no one bats an eye. Remeber the uproar over Carla Faye Tucker's execution? Where was that uproar when Black men were being executed? Also consider this. The vast majority (I mean overwhelming) of serial killers, child killer, child molesters, and drug dealers (despite what you see in movies) are white. In the past fifty years, there have been over a hundred WHITE serial killers, and only three, maybe fewer, Black ones. And when was the last time we heard of a Black child molester? NEVER! Black people don;t commit hate crimes. Whites do. With obvious exceptions of several NFL players, Black people are less likely to be involved in a domestic violence case. It's usually white people who beat their wives and children. Of course, anothe rthing to remember, when ever a Black person commits a crime, it's all over the news. White people, the reaction is usally "ah who cares" unless he's famous. So think before you talk Jeanne.

Oops. Didn't mean to click Anonymous.

natsim: Excellent point.

Bill: You just don´t get it, do you?

Jeanne - Your bigotry angers and saddens me. I hope you didn't manage to pass it along to your children.

I was listening to NPR the other day and heard a statistic about Oklahoma & the death penalty. Of the N (can't remember the number) murders of blacks by whites, none of the whites got the death penalty. Meanwhile, of the (larger than N) murders of whites by blacks, a majority of the blacks got the death penalty. Yes, more blacks than whites committed murder. Also yes, more blacks than whites get the death penalty. Therefore, it looks like bias to me, at least in Oklahoma.

Jeanne, you need to be careful about proximate cause and direct cause. Yeah, it's pretty clear that more minorities are involved in crime, but is the fact that they're minorities directly responsible (note that I'm assuming that individuals are still responsible for their actions, this is looking at the larger population) or could there be other reasons? For example, look at crimes by location, economic status, education, local crime rate, types of offenses, conviction rates, etc. When you start looking at those numbers you see a balancing across races that is not clear from the easily quoted "bottom-line" numbers.

May I ask any of you a question? What is bigotry? It means holding an intolerance of another person's opinion. Well SOME of you folks are bigots? You cannot tolerate my opinion. Do I still live in a free nation? Evidently not! I do have a right to my opinion and I am not afraid of saying anything that might be deemed "politically incorrect." Are you proposing MIND CONTROL?

From what I have observed in the vicinity from my home (within 30 to 40 miles) there is a tremendous amount of crime by blacks,hispanics and other ethnic groups. Their neighborhoods are ridden by crime and violence. Their cities and schools are in really alot of trouble. I'm not saying all black, hispanic and other ethnic groups, individually, are all bad, I am saying there seems to be an inordinate number of them that commit crime. This is not my imagination. I was raised in an all white neighborhood. We never had violence in our neighborhood. Never! I am not saying it is the same everywhere else, but I do know what I have observed and lived.

In the state of politics, the conspirators want to destroy the institutions. Our police departments are under seige now for trying to protect us. We should support our police.

I do believe that if all circumstance given are equal, two people should receive the same punishment, no matter what the race of people. I do believe in fairness. It appears to me, in the many cases, people feel are unfair, the poor counsels (lawyers) are at fault. Do you all feel O.J. Simpson was guilty or not? He is guilty as sin and we all know it, but he had expensive, morally corrupt counsel. The jury was corrupt. He got off free after he murdered two people, destroying many peoples lives.

This has become a very secular society in the last 50 years, very sad indeed.

Jeanne: I still think you are confusing the effects of poverty with those of race. OJ just proves my point. He got off because he was rich -- as do a lot of white killers, since on the whole whites are richer than blacks. Plus, poor people are more likely to have committed the crime in the first place -- they're more desperate, and worse educated. The main reason why there are so many more blacks on Death Row than whites is that there are so many more poor people on Death Row than rich people.

And no, I'd define "bigotry" as a predisposition to hold people of a certain category in lower regard in general. Intolerance of a particular opinion is "bias", which is different.

Your statement that black people do not commit child molestation is way off the mark. There is, I bet comparable to white, but you will never hear about it or it is hidden. I saw a talk show several years ago about a black man that had several daughters and had children by each and every one of them. Incest counts as child molestation does it not? They had three of the daughters on the show,and they all stated they had children by their father. THAT IS CHILD MOLESTATION PLUS!!!!

I am not saying white people do not commit crime, but now it appears that the liberal media is only talking about how bad white people are, what do you expect from a communist ridden media? Their objective is to destroy this white Christian nation. Several years ago, early in the morning, I was up watching a news program when all of a sudden, out from behind a curtain, a man walked toward the camera and said, "the communists have taken over the television industry." The man was told to get off the stage and the camera quickly focused on something else. I have never forgotten that man and the expression on his face.

You say blacks do not beat their wives, are you kidding? I've seen talk programs when the subject is on wife abuse that show black women being beaten and killed by their black spouses.

As far as hate crimes go, I think the game field is pretty level.

Let's face it folks, people of all colors commit crime, all different kinds of crime. A shame isn't it?

*plonk*

Jeanne just discussed several things that she learned from watching TV. So I am going to use that to shamelessly plug a TV show. The cable channel TNT is going to show a movie about the American civil rights movement called "Freedom Song" on Feb 27 at 7pm Eastern, US time. (I don't know anything about TNT's national or international reach) In this movie, Stan Shaw plays a character called Archie Mullen, who represents the real person Chuck McDew. I know Chuck. He showed me this movie a few weeks ago. He helped write the script, its all true. Jeanne, and others, I encourage you to watch the movie if you can. Make it another data point in your list of things you have seen on TV. Take note of the race of the criminals. More info is available at http://tnt.turner.com/movies/tntoriginals/freedomsong/index.html

Wait a minute, this is a white Christian nation? Dammit. No wonder I don't fit in.

Of course the big problem with a statement like "[m]inority people commit more crime" is that it's true. Phi points out that poverty is closer to the real cause than skin color but that doesn't lessen the veracity of the original statement. Unfortunately, it's all too easy for many people to go from that true statement to the untrue conclusion, "therefore those people aren't as good as I".

Some would say then that we shouldn't utter the first statement, perhaps not even think it, and denounce it whenever it's heard. Basically, pretend it's not true even though it is; after all, we don't want to be associated with bigotry. I'm uncomfortable with that position.

Better, I think, to acknowledge the statement as true but irrelevant. Perhaps it's useful as a case study in statistics on how easy it is to confuse causation with correlation but beyond that there's no information there.

Phi,
I read the definition of bigotry from Webster's New World Dictionary.

Vos,Vos, Vos
Why is it that when white people defend white people they are called Hitler, called racist, neo nazi? No one will ever be able to intimidate me or back me in a corner about the race issue. No one can look into my heart and know exactly how I feel. I am not a sheeple. I am proud to be a white woman. Is there anything wrong with that vos?

Sue Bee,
I have taught my children to be courteous, respectful and kind to other people. All my children have grown up to be loving, courteous, kind, responsible people. I have also taught my children and presently teaching my grandchildren to be proud of their heritage, stay with their own kind, to marry their own kind and most important of all, to learn and know God's word. What about this is wrong Sue Bee?


In saying what I have said, I do not, or will not apologize for what I have said. Regarding the original question. I don't know if there is bias regarding people of color. All people that commit crimes should be dealt with appropriately, no matter what color. As far as, more black or hispanic people being in prison, it is because they committed the crime. Even some responsible black people know this. As Ken Hamlin says, they do the crime, they do the time.

Quit giving excuses to people who commit crime, whatever happened to individual responsibility? I think that word has been erased from the English language. Responsibility! Today, the word is sue, sue, sue.

I do not feel poverty is a good enough reason for violent crime. I think the reason we have had so much crime in this country is A LACK OF SPIRITUAL FAITH, GOOD PARENTING, A BREAKDOWN OF THE FAMILY, A WALKING AWAY FROM GOD'S LAWS, AND DRUGS, DRUGS, DRUGS AND DRUGS.

Bottom line folks, I have grown weary of hearing how bad and oppressive white people are. Poppycock! This is a psychological technique used by the liberals. I know it and unfortunately too many white people believe it. I think people of color had better own up to their own communal problems. They themselves have to work to fix their communities and not depend on white people to do it for them. White people have to take care of their own problems.

I'm sorry for writing this essay, and hopefully some of you will UNDERSTAND what I am saying. I abhor crime and violence, whoever commits it.

Jeanne: It was just the way you wrote "Minority people commit more crime", and: "I am sick of hearing it is the white peoples fault for everything. I don't believe it. I am tired of hearing white people as being scapegoats for everything."

Being a European this sounds very familiar to me. We´ve heard this kind of talk in the 30´s from a certain Austrian guy. He blamed the jews, you blame blacks and hispanics.
You should really think twice before writing down things like that.

stay with their own kind
to marry their own kind


Scientifically speaking,
There is one race...the human race. Within this race there are variances in skin color, eye shape, hair texture, external variations developed in accordance to adaptation to climate in the native lands of each human but there is absolutely no difference beneath the human being's skin. Same heart, same brain, liver, spleen, muscles, bones....dreams.....emotions....etc....

There are no different kinds jeanne
one kind
mankind.

Thanks for writing that for me, TwM. I didn't think I had the stamina, and there you go, doing it for me. I agree totally with what you've said.

I'm not sure I do, actually, although I certainly see your point. I plan to marry someone Jewish, because it's important to me to have a Jewish household and a Jewish family and Jewish children and a Jewish life. That doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with not being Jewish, just that my Jewishness is something I value strongly in my life and want to share and perpetuate with my family. I may share the same heart and brain and liver etc with non-Jews, but we have different cultures, and sometimes that really does matter.

Jeanne: I never said black people never molest children. I just said that the overwhelming majority, probably 95%, are white people.

I was raised in an all white
neighborhood. We never had violence in our neighborhood. Never!

That's what your family told you probably. I severly doubt it's true. I grew up in a predominatly black neighborhood in California. We had plenty of crime, but the criminals were usually white boys.

Jeanne - You certainly do have a right to your opinion, but I disagree with your views. I see nothing wrong with interracial marriage, for example. If two people fall in love they should be able to be together without anyone looking down on them for it. Your kids sound like nice people, but I bet they wouldn't want a minority family moving into the house next door to them. That seems so hateful to me. I just don't understand it.

gilly - Your desire to marry someone Jewish makes perfect sense to me. It's not that you're necessarily prejudice against people who are not Jewish, but more out of respect for your heritage, which is admirable. It's certainly up to you to choose your own partner, as each of us should be allowed to choose using whatever measure is important to us.

But don't you see, it sounds to me like Jeanne is saying the same thing. Perhaps she phrased it in a way that sounds more offensive, but I don't think she's saying "stick with your own kind because everyone else is evil", just that her religion is as important to her as mine is to me, and to value and preserve that. It's really hard not to compromise your faith when you're surrounded by people of other faiths. I know my standards have relaxed some because I don't have a lot of religious friends, and I really regret that. I violently disagree with most of what Jeanne says, but I can support her on this one.

Jeanne: blaming minority crime rates on drugs and lack of religion is just the same as those minorities blaming it on poverty and white people. They are both gross over-simplifications.

gilly I understood her to mean stick with those of your own race...not those of your own faith.

I agree with Jeanne in that we need to punish crime the same way for all races. If minority groups are committing more crime we shouldn't adapt the law to punish them less severely because they are minorities or because they are poor.
I think our society should focus our efforts on ways we can improve the overall condition of the poor people in our country. I think providing education and opportunity to the groups stuck in poverty cycles is the best solution.
Adapting our court systems to be more lenient towards impoverished criminals will not likely help.

I'm not sure that the system itself is, but the individuals who comprise the system are.

Jeanne - If someone who goes to your church wanted to marry one of your children, would you mind if they were African-American?

I do agree with you, Jeanne, that people need to take responsibility for their actions.

I think Topper just pointed out a really important distinction.

topper: Excellent point.

>Scientifically speaking, There is one race...the human race.

mandy, why do you persist in propagating this myth? There are many races. They are all part of the human species, and all should be treated equally fairly (or equally unfairly), but RACE IS A FACT.

You can't destroy racism by denying the existence of race.

As far as the topic...

Jeanne is right. This forum contains the worse bigots I have ever encountered in my life. The fact that they aren't bigoted against niggers and jerks and freaks in particular does not make it okay.

Jeanne, I love you. Your ideas don't sit well with me and sometimes I find you hard to believe, but you at least know where you stand and you aren't afraid to stand there. Your position is an unpopular one, but if anyone would bother to evaluate it they would see that your conclusions are just as valid. You are just starting with different axioms - axioms which appear to have been outlawed here.

Don't ever let them shut you up.

drdt - We are all human beings. Why not look at our similarities instead of freaking out about our differences?

SB: I can look at our similarities without pretending we aren't different. I can even celebrate our differences with a little effort. Assuming I don't get slammed to the wall for it.

I don't get it. Why can't I express my feelings about Jeanne's bigotry without being called a bigot myself? I haven't told Jeanne to shut up, or to leave. I don't think I've ever said her opinions are wrong, just that I think most of them stink. Give me a break!

drdt

I must be mistaken then. I am sure I read that the scientific community at large has proclaimed the theory of race...null and void.

wait....I think I saw it on TV...on the discovery channel.....on a program about the human race.

It made perfect sense to me.
I am not in any kind of denial that there are differences within the human race that should be celebrated...I just believe that the differences are only skin deep so by saying stick to your own kind..you're really saying....all humans should be included as your own kind.

Hey.....how come Jeanne is allowed to propogate myths about god...and you say you love her...but when I try to propogate a myth about race you yell at me in cap locks?

Twist: I'm totally with you on this. Fact is, when you are sticking to your own kind you're REALLY limiting your options, becuase, let's say you are a one in a billion person. That means that there are 5 other people on the planet exactly like you in just about every way imaginable. Sticking to your kind menas hanging with no one other than those 5 people. Sounds boring doesn't it?

SueBee: I know how you feel. I've never asked or told Jeanne to leave either. Much as I dislike her and what she stands for, I'd probably get bored without someone like her around.

I appreciate your comments and going back to the original question, "does the U.S. Penalty system show bias for minority people?" Again, my answer is no!

Phi: I hope you didn't hurt yourself with that "plonk."

Robin: I'm sorry I do not watch those kind of movies. Those movies are very BIASED, brainwashing movies. They are propaganda pure and simple!

Vos: I'm only telling it like it is.

SueBee: Your question about how I would feel if one of my children wanted to marry or actually I believe the question was, " what if a person of color wanted to marry one of my children?" Well, to put it succinctly, very, very unhappy. I think a person of color should marry within their race, faith. It appears to me that people of color are racing to marry within the white race. I think anyone who marries out of their race are very, very insecure, and that includes a white person who marries out of their race.

I have a spiritual basis for what I believe. My children did marry within their kind; race, faith. I talked to them starting very young. I am presently talking to my grandchildren. I tell them to be proud of who they are and their heritage. I will carefully watch who my grandchildren are dating. Hopefully, they will marry intelligently. Today, in this liberal world, anything goes for some, for me and mine it is unacceptable. By saying all this, as Gilly said, does not mean that I feel less of other people, only that I want to retain my heritage and culture.

Twistermine: There are many races and cultures. God in his wisdom changed the languages for all our good.

Gilly, Jen: Thank you for understanding. I agree it is more comfortable and practical to marry with people of your own kind, your culture, your faith. This is my point.

Brian: I lived in my white neighborhood, there was no crime. I would have known if there was crime. We were able to play without fear, we left our keys in our cars, our doors were left unlocked at night. Since it seems politically correct to verbally beat up on white guys today, I'll tell you one thing, the white boys I knew and observed and went to school with were not involved with crime, they didn't take weapons to school, they didn't travel in gangs. In our white schools, we didn't have the problems they are having in predominantly black or hispanic schools. Why, Brian, why? There is no reason for crime Brian, no reason. Don't give excuses for crime.

Enheduannia: Over simplification possibly, but they do an inordinate amount of crime according to their population numbers. I know there are some decent, law abiding black and hispanic people, but there are many of the people who are committing too much crime.

Bill: I agree.

Drdt: Thank you, thank you very much for understanding. Thank you for your loving comments. I will continue to voice my opinion no matter how politically unpopular.

Jeanne: I take exception to a couple of your points: First of all, you compare your white schools (when you were growing up) to today's black or hispanic schools - that's an apples to oranges comparison when there's a decades-plus separation between the times. Try comparing a modern-day white school (say Columbine?) to a modern-day black or hispanic school. Try comparing a school in the suburbs to one in the inner city, regardless of race. Try comparing a school that spends $8,000 per student to one that spends $1,000 per student. Then look at the differences and see how maybe race isn't such a factor in the crime rates associated with those schools/areas.

Secondly, I'm bothered by your point "There is no reason for crime...Don't give excuses for crime." People don't just wake up one morning and say, "You know what? I'm going to rob a convenience store today," or "I'm going to go sell some drugs," or "I'm going to shut down Yahoo and eBay." They have a set of experiences and conclusions that lead them to commit these crimes, and though the reason might be illogical/immoral/insane to us generally law-abiding types, to the criminal the reasons are often eminently logical. Your reasoning sounds like "they commit crimes because that's what they do" which is too simplistic. I am *not* excusing the actions of criminals, I am just trying to say that there are reasons why people become criminals.

Jeanne: When was the last time you heard of a black or hispanic kid going to shcool armed like The Terminator blowing away everyone in sight? NEVER! It's always upper-class white kids. You also make it sound like if you want to live crime free stay in a white neighborhood. Sorry to spoil your day, but Gacy, Manson, and other butt-holes like him (all white by the way) lived in neighborhoods JUST LIKE YOURS! Check something other than KKK pamphlets for your facts next time, will ya'? For me? Please?

Jen: I agree with you. The liberal news media, don't really want to report anything regarding people of color, because they want their liberal candidates for public office to not lose the minority vote.

Jonathan: When I talk about the white neighborhood and white schools that I attended were crime free, I mean just that. I never heard of weapons or violence in the schools. Never! The black schools in my youth, had problems. The black schools were known to be "rough" schools. The hispanic gangs were known to be "rough." I knew a young white fellow that attended a predominantly black school and was beaten up the first day. We had one black boy in our school and no one ever beat him up.

When I mention crime, Jonathan, there is no need for crime. What is the need? Just because Joe/Jane Doe down the street owns one more VCR and the criminal wants/covets it, does it give the right for the criminal to take from another person, who has earned it? When someone steals, some people might say, it is only an object, a thing, but you know what, buying that object took work hours out of the man that owned it. Those "objects" took time out of their lives owners to earn the money to buy the object. Are you following me?

Also, Jonathan, I would like to know, why is it that everyone feels everyone should have to be equal? By sheer numbers, it is impossible for everything to be equal. Not everyone is equal. We are different. Many have more skills than others, some are more intelligent, where one person is gifted, the other may not be gifted and visa, versa. I know the area I live in there is more money being spent in other districts on students, but I don't see people crying about it. My grandchildren are excellent, intelligent students.The older ones are honor students, the younger ones are also excellent students with honorable mentions. It DEPENDS alot on the PARENTS.

In life, everyone can't go to medical school, become a CEO and so on not everyone is going to become rich. Jonathan I do know that money does not make happiness.

Brian: You appear to feel threatened by a woman who says it like it is. Also, your remark about the white students who go to school and shoot other students. Well, number one, I feel there is too much violence and glamorizing it in the news media, television, movies, and music. Number two, it is sad, but there was one common thread in these cases, it being they were all on mind altering drugs, i.e. Ritalin and other such drugs. All of these children were intelligent children who were put on drugs to quiet their creativity. Many famous inventors would have been diagnosed with the same problems these children had. I am not condoning what the students did, but this was a common thread and I would question the medical community for prescribing these drugs and not disclosing this possible behavior. Instead of trying to take the guns away from law abiding citizens, take the mind altering drugs out the children's lives.

While there are isolated instances of white students in school, committing terrible acts, the crimes in the black schools are so common place, it is evidently too common to put in the nations news. I believe it was the black and hispanic schools that started bringing the weapons into the schools. I believe it was black and hispanic schools where teachers were afraid to teach there as the students were beating up on their teachers. Right now, there is a lot of politicking going on, and they are trying to get the minority vote. I know for a fact there is many problems in the local predominantly black and hispanic schools. I suspect the children need guidance from home and possibly there wouldn't be so many gangs, if there was more guidance at home. The schools are known to be "rough."

I know people of all colors commit crime and it is sad, but there really is no excuses, maybe reasons, for crime. I would suspect that much of the crime today is happening because of drugs, legally or illegally. It is surely a shame. I think the reason most people turn to drugs is they are trying to self-medicate themselves for pain they may be suffering, fatigue, not realizing that there maybe really a health issue. I don't like prescribed/illegal drugs and would only turn to the medical community for crisis care. I don't even have an aspirin in the house.

In saying what I have said, make your own assumptions,because nothing I can really say will change your mind. I dislike crime and violence. I will never apologize for what I feel, and the way I feel is from my life observations. I was raised by a non violent, very loving Christian family. I want my family and I to be able to live in a peaceful, non violent environment.

Says it like it is? No, not like it is. Like a racist sees it.

North high School here in Denver is a predominatly Hispanic school. You know what the last shooting incident was? Some drunk shot himself in the foot on the playground in the middle of the night!

I don't even have an aspirin in the house

What's wrong with Asprin? I take asprin when I have bad pains and nothing bad has happened to me. I suppose if you were allergic to asprin it would make sense, and I would feel like an ass for commenting, but if you're not, then why?

I was raised by a non violent, very loving Christian family. I want my family and I to be able to live in a peaceful, non violent environment.

I was raised in a mildly violent, not very loving non-Christian home, and I think I turned out fine. Maybe my temper is a bit on the short side, but I'm getting better at controlling it (you'll notice I haven't cussed at you this entire post).

As for peaceful and non-violent enviroment, not gonna happen. As long as there are evil demagouges like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, there will always be violence. And most of it will be directed at Women, Homosexuals, Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, and Atheists.

I will never apologize for what I feel, and the way I feel is from my life observations.

So is the way I feel. Clearly I see things differently than you. And BTW, about the "liberal media" have you watched Fox News? They are very Conservative-centric. Like during that period when NYC Mayor Gulliani(sp?) wanted to shut down an art exhibit becuase he didn't like what he saw. He went on Fox News and slandered the exhibit, making false assumptions. And not one person was allowed on to rebut his statements. The media is liberal? Yeah, right.

Brian: I want to preface by saying, thank you for not cussing. If you have anger control issues, you can take herbs for that. You have to work on your liver. Herbs such as bupleurum, silymarin, dandelion are good for the liver. You have to clear the life anger from your liver, as your liver stores anger and tension.

Brian, I am telling you like it is according to my life experiences. You may call me a racist, I am no longer bothered by that word.

I have no aspirin in my home because it can have side effects, why not just take willow bark?

I rarely see Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, but I do tend to lean to their way of thinking.

As far as the art work you are referring, is it the dung artwork? Really Brian, isn't that a bit much? I am not Catholic, but I think I would have been offended if I were Catholic.

The media in this country is definitely liberal. They have an agenda.

To your statements, there will never be a peaceful environment, you could be right. Only when God comes, will there be a peaceful world environment. As I have stated, I came from a non violent family. My schools and neighborhood were not violent. I had wonderful parents and relatives, friends, I had a good childhood. I was fortunate. I want a peaceful environment for my family too.

As far as the art work you are referring, is it the dung artwork? Really
Brian, isn't that a bit much? I am not Catholic, but I think I would have
been offended if I were Catholic.

Offended by an expression of faith? That's a load of crap (pardon the pun) if I ever heard one. I'm not Catholic either, but I wouldn't have been offended. For starters it wasn't just "dung art." It was an expression of faith made by an African catholic. Personally, I think you hated it becuase one painting showed a black Virgin mary breast feeding a baby Jesus, and we all know how you feel about white power.

To you I raise my right hand and say "Big Smile! Big Smile!"

Brian: it is understandable that Jeanne annoys you but that really was uncalled for.

No it wasn't. That was funny.

Supp: Are you really defending Jeanne?? Amazing....

I am sick of this juvenile bullying. I don't agree with Jeannes views; most of us don't agree with Jeannes views. Some disagree with them violently enough to never want to have to see them again - which is fair enough, but that does not give anyone the right to act like an butt-hole toward her without provocation. There are a lot of people here saying "I disagree with X view but support peoples right to put it forth" who then turn around and start laying on the personal attacks when people 'put them forth'. I am far from perfect but I strive not to be two faced, I try to be honest and fair. Jeanne did not deserve to be attacked and so I stuck up for her - when I say "I disagree with X view but support peoples right to put it forth" I actually mean it.

supplicant: Well said.

Jeanne - It's interesting to hear you say that you come from a non-violent family, when you've said in other surveys that you spank and switch your kids. Non-consensual hitting is indeed violence.

It certainly looks that way to the casual observer.