Do you think homosexuality is:

homosexuality is word, a person's sexuality is infinitely more complex than a single word could describe.

I don't know how it happens.

I think it's just a natural thing that happens in a minority of the population, like being left handed.

I'm not ruling out that genetics may represent a piece of the variance: I'm a second-generation bisexual, and second-gen poly as well (and I didn't know about my parents' orientations in these areas 'til I came out; they give a straight appearance). I know a bunch of other second-gen folks, too.

I have no idea. And I don't really think that it's that important to find out. I don't know, let me wake up and maybe I'll have some more to say.

I think sexuality is a relationship, not a constant. Sexuality is something that happens between people, not just a condition of an individual.

I've seen so many kinds of sexuality in people that I can't just think of people as being straight or gay - I've known plenty of "straight" or "gay" people who had sex (sometimes repeatedly) with people outside of the gender you'd think they'd normally sleep with. And that's not even considering all the people who are profoundly bisexual, or the people to whom power or pain plays a big part in their sexuality, or all the different kinds of fetishes people have.

I think that one's sexuality is the result of a very complex mix of genetics (at the least, how one reacts to various pheromones), upbringing, emotional state, and sometimes preference. There are certainly people who do make a conscious decision to sleep with someone in particular. Not only do the results of the mix vary radically between individuals, but the way in which the mix happens varies tremendously, too. There are so many reasons that people are sexually attracted to one another, and there's so much confusion involving love, sex and intimacy issues that I think the only generalization you can make is that it's really complicated.

Nobody knows, but my guess is it is a little bit of nature and a little bit of nurture.

I suspect that the processes that 'determine' whether I prefer coffee ice cream over vanilla ice cream are the same processes that determine my sexual orientation.

maybe your mom ate coffee ice-cream while she was pregnant with you (and got all stressed out).... oh, but that doesn't explain your straight twin brother...

bill: maybe she wasn't stressed out, just profoundly ambivalent :)

I think trying to determine its cause is counterproductive.

Bill - I've known of twins where one was gay, the other straight. The mother was gay and the father was straight, in that family.

I like the line from the movie Hair - something like, "No, I'm not gay, but if Mick Jagger asked me out, I wouldn't turn him down"

Avocado, my only problem with that quote is that Mick Jagger is an amazingly ugly man that I suspect many women would kick out of bed, let alone a man.

repulsive

bill: But he's rich and famous. For some reason, that makes up for looks for some people.

Oscar: Are you familiar with the Westboro Baptist Church, found at www.godhatesfags.com? I'm curious to know if their views are representative of Baptists in general (to your knowledge anyway).

I have never heard of that site or church. Honestly, I didn't really look at the site, but it is probably die hard rude and hateful to homosexual people. I am not. I just don't agree with their lifestyle and I think it is wrong. I don't publically (or privately) persecute them or bash them. Even by saying that I find it repulsive I don't mean to be rude. I'm sure that there are things in my life and other's that people find repulsive.

Oscar: Okay, I was just wondering. I've never actually met a Baptist before and that site, and the recent anti-Disney activities certain Baptists groups have engaged in, were my only exposure to Baptists. I'd hate to make any generalizations based on the yahoos who get all the press (that goes for any group).

I understand.

ILJ: I think that a lot of that stuff is Southern Baptists. Those are the Baptists that I'm the most familiar with, living in the mountains of North Carolina. They seem to be pretty harsh.

I was raised Unitarian but my grandparents were 'northern Baptists'. When I was 15 or so my grandmother was invited to a Southern Baptist church and I went along... they found out I was a UU and dragged me out behind the church and berated me for an hour about how badly I was being abused by my parents that they would send me to a UU church and tell me that being a good person was more important than believing in Jesus. It was pretty traumatic, particularly for my grandmother, who had no idea where I was the entire time.

Needless to say we didn't go back, although I considered getting my church youth group to go as a team and teach them a lesson.

My favorite part: "I want you to imagine that the church was on fire, and your grandmother was hanging out the window calling 'Please help me!' You would want to help her, right? Of course you would. Now what if she wasn't calling for help? You would still know she was in trouble and would want to help, right? Well, that is what is happening with you. Your family has put you in danger of being burned in the fires of Hell, and you aren't calling for help, but I still want to help you..."

"Oh, so the fires in Hell are like a fire in your church?"

Anyway, in my experience, Northern Baptists are pretty laid back (and they sing great) but Southern Baptists need an enema.

I think that is a compliment, drdt.
There is a HUGE difference between Southern Baptist and "northern" Baptist as you call them.

drdt.... I'd be way happy to administer that enema...any day ;)
*snapping on her latex gloves and grabbing the garden hose*

drdt, your "church youth group", was it called LRY?

I am left-handed, a lesbian, AND I grew up attending the First Baptist Church. I kid you not. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!

Sue: Oh yeah? I'm a multi-racial (half white, half black), Gay, Jewish, Canadian women who was rasied (age 4-18) in Georgia, and lives in California with a bi-sexual German-Irish atheist roommate. Between the two of us, we cover the entire planet!!!!!!

anon: Gee, you make me feel almost normal! (Whatever THAT is)

I think the actual behavior is nature, but expression/acceptance/ repression is nurture.

I, right now, personally believe it is a prefrence, but I can't give a "for sure,set, that's the way it is" reason because I'm not homosexual. I am female and have been sexually drawn to a couple females but I haven't been in a same sex relationship, not because I'm against it but because I never had the chance to take it any further that sexual attraction.

Bill: I have no idea what it was called, we were just a bunch of teenagers who met after church with the minister and picked apart his sermons. What is/was LRY?

Leftover Raspberry Yogurt!

V.R. Ramachandran (a neuorophysiologist) compares the act of trying to determine whether a certain behavior is 'nurture or nature" to trying to determine whether it's the hydrogen or the oxygen that gets us wet.

neither hydrogen nor oxygen have ever made me wet ;)

TwM: and therefore neither nature nor nurture has made you gay.

Leftist Radical Youth! - I had some other friends who were UU and went to a youth group (actually, it's how most of them met). It was a significant grouping in their lives that even affected mine a lot - though, I was just a lame old Catholic. They used to joke about what LRY stood for.

i think it's innate, and a preference...if that's possible...i think people are born gay (my opinion, with no facts whatsoever), but still have to make the choice to live a gay lifestyle....so it's a lil of both

a combination of factors. i have a hard time believing that homosexuality is a completely inborn trait...

jen: yes people are occasionally accused of 'living a heterosexual lifestyle' - but the phrase is still inaccurate and ridiculous :) And incidentally I know a hell of a lot of gay people, and for the most part they do live a different lifestyle to the 'norm' - but then I also know straight people who live that same lifestyle (it has pretty much nothing to do with sexual preference, and a lot more to do with attitude and outlook on life), and a lot of straight people who live a lot of other 'different' lifestyles depending on their motivations, career choices, interests etc.

so if it's so normal and my statement ridiculous, why are many people(like my brother) scared to out themselves...it's not because they are ashamed of how they feel...it's because they are afraid people won't accept their 'lifestyle'...now you may say there are plenty of gay/lesbians that have absolutely no problem with that, but there are still those that live in fear of rejection...again, this is only my opinion...and if there is a better way to phrase it, please inform me...is it ok to say alternative lifestyle? ok...how about this...take out the "gay lifestyle" above and insert with "make their friends and family aware"

Mick Jagger was actually kinda cute when he was young. A LONG time ago.

My mom thinks Mick Jagger is sexy. Of course, I wouldn't put my mom on my list of the most mentally stable people, either.

jen, well I agree..I don't get up and eat gay breakfast and drive a gay car and my daughter doesn't do gay homework and we don't watch gay TV and don't have a gay cat and don't eat gay pizza and take gay showers .......we live a lifestyle exactly like that of most middle class married couples/families except for the fact that we are both females. That fact is the only thing that differentiates us from anyone else living this kind of "lifestyle"......

An example of what some straight people may see as a gay "lifestyle" is, let's say, a lesbian couple, in a predominantly gay community, actively involved politically in the gay rights movement, who fly a rainbow flag on their front porch and go out clubbing on the weekends and attend gay pride events and have posters of Melissa Etheridge and wear pink triangle jewelry and have commitment ceremonies and drive Subaru's with "Celebrate Diversity" bumper stickers, who go on Olivia Cruises and refer to each other as...My wife.

There are so many different degrees of gayness and so many different choices of lifestyle. Do I live a gay lifestyle? Nope, I think our life mirrors something very straight. Except at night when we get into the same bed.
Is the lesbian couple described above the only kind of lesbian couple? nope.... Is that the only kind of lesbian lifestyle? nope...

I have no problem with the word lifestyle unless it is used in absolute terms to describe one specific lifestyle pertaining only to ALL "gays/lesbians"


I'd love to hear what others here consider a "gay" lifestyle.

mandy: I ate gay breakfast once; it was faaaabulous! ;)

when did SC get so PC...geez

Both my mom and aunt find Mick Jagger sexy... I guess it's kinda like me finding Steve Buscemi attractive.

jen- do you understand what i meant though?...not so much a lifestyle, but gay/lesbians make a choice as to what degree they will live their life...completely open...in the closet...telling only close friends...staying straight forever....that's all i was gettin at...i didn't mean to bottle-neck it all into one 'lifestyle'

just an example...my brother has told me he remembers being attracted to boys at a very young age..(i think that's innate, genetic even)--now, on the other hand...he chose how he would live his life...and he chose to not tell anyone for 26 years of his life, but now he's comfortable with the fact that we know, and still love him...that was a choice...he could have chose not to ever tell anyone...sooooo..i think there's a bit of preference
another thing...'gay lifestyle'...ok, so no one ever says 'heterosexual lifestyle', but answer me this...how many 'straight' bars(actually called that) or 'straight' parades have you been to? or how many 'heterosexual pride week's have you celebrated? ;)
so i think there is a certain 'lifestyle'...just don't know what call it.

My only real objection to the term "gay lifestyle" is the notion lurking behind it that there is one definable "gay lifestyle".

magbast - I'm not saying this has ANYTHING at all to do with your brothers situation, and yeah, you're right when you say that someone chooses how to deal with the fact that they are gay, but there can be a lot of extenuating circumstances in making that decision. It's a bit tougher decision than deciding what to have for breakfast, especially when you see people having breakfast every day and have an idea how they deal with it. Things are better today than they used to be, but for someone who's young and just figuring out how to deal with sexuality, figuring out how to deal with being gay in a very straight and homophobic society can be very very difficult. Especially when you may get the crap kicked out of you for being out to the wrong people.

The problem is that yeah, they're not called 'straight bars'... because people take it for GRANTED that they're straight.

I suspect the term "gay lifestyle" is used by some heterosexuals to describe anything gay people do that makes them feel uncomfortable or somehow threatened. Why heterosexual people find the "gay lifestyle" threatening has more to do with fearing what they don't understand, I think, than anything else.

One point about the "gay lifestyle" I've heard noted is that is that unlike issues of race it's largely/entirely defined by sexuality & gender, which opens up a whole can o' worms in regards to culture & religion since our Western-ized society is not a sex-positive one. So being homosexual is a defining aspect of someone's life along a path different from what everyone is used to, while trodding on areas that are very familiar to people with long-held assumptions and expectations. This theory doesn't change anything, but it helps to understand why people react the way they do.

Personally, I think the majority of people who make the blanket "gay lifestyle" statement are attempting (consciously or unconsciously) to cast homosexuals as extremists so as to be able to justify extreme actions against them. I take the fact that some of the calls to action by folks like Pat Robertson have become more strident in recent years to be a sign that they're getting pushed out of being the mainstream view.

Big Gay Al is the crap!

I am curious what gay people think of Big Gay Al and his Big Gay Lifestyle (and his Big Gay Cat to boot). Any takers?

drdt: He's super, thanks for asking. :)

wow, like i said, i didn't mean to downplay the struggles that a troubled gay person might encounter...i just didn't know how to phrase it...and in no way did i mean to make homosexuality sound trite...it's hard, as a heterosexual, to know what to say, or how to say it...just know that i'm not a homophobe...and embrace my brother's decision...i've come to find that almost 99.9% of the openly gay people that i've encountered are extremely warm and friendly...and honest...and that's not a stereotype, that's my personal experience

Big Gay who?

I think sexuality in general is a choice. There are preferences involved, there are genetics involved - but sexual acts are conscious acts designed to evoke pleasure in yourself, and you can choose to enjoy or deny it. Someone can have homosexual preferences, but still deny themselves and get married and have kids - does that mean they aren't homosexual?

Also, nobody ever has sex "by accident" (though there are plenty of instances where people aren't totally in possession of their faculties). Sex is just a really complex issue...

right on with the " lifestyle" thing. i think most folks who use the term (beyond the underinformed merely parroting what they think is 'correct') are just plain close-mided about everything.

joe, trying to find where his lifestyle went

I also think it is really yucky.

*sigh*

What *exactly* do you think is 'really yucky' about it?

Maggie. I think you are Yucky. You and your "husband" who you actually aren't even married to yet. What's that all about?

I am married to him. We went to the justice of the peace. We are having a church ceremony in July so that our families can be there.


I don't think I will answer anymore "homosexuality" questions. I think everyone knows how I feel now. My work here is done.

Oh , I see. I didn't quite understand your yammering about the songs you want played at your wedding and then calling him your husband. My bad.

I think homosexuality is so discusting its not even funny! God did not make people like that I am sorry. Nobody can tell me you were born with it. It is a choice you made. A very very bad choice!!

Ok. I know this is a long time ago from that thing about God hates jerks.com but I just wanna say that God doesnt hate them, he hates what they are doing.

God doesn't hate ANYTHING you twit! He sent his son to preach love and tolerance, and you've desecrated his memory.

BKC.......I hate what you're doing.

That doesn't mean she has to stop though. That is what I was trying to tell you before. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but that doesn't mean that I expect you to conform to mine or that I will conform to yours.

Well said Maggie. I've always felt that the key to world peace is not caring what anyone else thinks about you.

It could be many of the above.

I'm with Twister, I really don't like Maggie!!

The homo/hetero/bi-sexual distinction is a pathetic attempt to categorize human sexuality, which is actually far too complex to be defined as "A", "B", or "C". Its causes and expression, needless to say, are also complex, but from what I have seen have a substantial degree of prenatal (probably genetic) influence. Or, what bill & romkey both said. Great initial post, romkey! As to the later one, I'd prefer Keith Richards myself... Hey magbast, when are you going to introduce me to your brother?

hell, i thought you were gone eris...he stayed with us a while back, should have took some pictures with the quick-cam...he was also with me when the baby was born, i'll scan a picture of him for ya...beware- he's a party animal!!!

he's also taken -- and his boyfriend is very cute.

they has the hots for my brother...*snicker*

AND his brother's boyfriend.