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| Type | Created | Category | Creator | Sort | Votes | Hides | Rating | |
| multiple | 30-Jun-2009 | personal habits | Kristal_Rose | by votes | 44 | 4 | 59.1% |
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| User | Comment |
|---|---|
| Irene007 | posted 1-Jul-2009 9:24pm |
| Irene007 | posted 1-Jul-2009 9:26pm Good question Kristal! Well good for me anyway! |
| Enheduanna | posted 1-Jul-2009 10:24pm I use it when it seems that it is appropriate. |
| LJD | posted 2-Jul-2009 2:01am Sometimes... |
| Kristal_Rose | posted 2-Jul-2009 2:18am Formality and clarification. I use lots of long sentences, and 'that' helps prevent the reader from getting lost at times. |
| Kristal_Rose | (reply to Irene007) posted 2-Jul-2009 2:53am I would think it's a cue that your phrase is roughly prepositional, more roughly yet, adjective in nature.
Some cereal on the floor, under the carpet, {that was} burned in a fire, {that} I've been saving since 1987. It also appears to be reflexive. In English we only have the subjective and objective cases. I think this is what Germans would call the dative case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dative_case Ah-ha. It introduces a restrictive clause; If there was any question 'which' cereal I was eating, it might be the cereal 'that' was given to me by space aliens, and not the cereal 'that' merely had a space alien on the box. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictive_clause Similar are the 'demonstratives': 'this' cereal, 'that' cereal - but those aren't the frequently optional uses of 'that' which my survey refers to. English allows to do with any part of speech that one can understand without, but typically the rule is to replace that missing word or phrase with a comma. They don't even teach that rule in college as they did 20 years ago, so I'm guessing the prevailing rule is use a comma if it feels like you need some pause, as if something unsaid were missing. Anyhow, I just noticed that sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't, and set upon identifying my own rules I had been unconscious of. It's far from my greatest literary issue, which would be how to handle paragraphs which fork off into two or more linear chains of thought from the same source, especially when edited. My only answer to that was writing on multidimensional paper or using hyperlinks. ..or what I have been doing for 30 years, writing in deeply nested digressions with tons of semicolons and commas within parentheses. |
| bill | posted 2-Jul-2009 7:13am In the case of your example, I tend not to use "that". Basically, if it seems like I can eliminate it, I will. Efficiency?
But, I use that in other cases. Searching SC reveals many cases of me using "that". e.g. I don't know about "right", but this sounds like something that wouldn't work very well. |
| Irene007 | (reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 2-Jul-2009 8:59am Sounds like me...
How about the wrod "like"? I've often seen it dropped in sentences such as; "I look a mess." Shouldn't that be; "I look like a mess."? |
| fbkyvet | posted 2-Jul-2009 10:12am thats kind of pathetic to do... |
| cloudhugger | posted 2-Jul-2009 10:42am The selections of that sentence confused the that right out of me |
| cloudhugger | (reply to Irene007) posted 2-Jul-2009 10:44am You could point at a mess and statie it as "I look like that mes" |
| Jody | posted 2-Jul-2009 11:28am I'm more likely to use it in written language than spoken language. |
| Biggles | posted 2-Jul-2009 2:53pm Almost always. |
| Irene007 | (reply to cloudhugger) posted 2-Jul-2009 3:18pm |
| RainingFeathers | posted 2-Jul-2009 7:18pm It's intermittent. I sometimes use 'that' and I sometimes don't. Not really sure why. |
| Kristal_Rose | (reply to Irene007) posted 2-Jul-2009 9:15pm Same thing I guess. It can be understood what you mean without using the qualifying words.
From what I've been told of Gaeilic, even subjects, verbs, and objects are optional, and all can occur in any sequence. It's the replacement of leading consonants which identifies where something lies within such case structure. |
| Kristal_Rose | (reply to bill) posted 2-Jul-2009 9:22pm Your example involves a verb, and not a verb which stands alone as an adjective, like 'burned'. Put another way, your example indicates plot, not state of being. 'That' appears to be useful like a dissolve in a movie to a flashback, immersing us in some separate digressive realm - again, the restrictive clause, as opposed to an immediately apparent use as an adjective. |
| Irene007 | (reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 3-Jul-2009 9:09pm Too much for my messed up head right now... |
| Kristal_Rose | (reply to Irene007) posted 3-Jul-2009 9:45pm Must be the anarchy.
So what's new in Canada? |
| they | posted 4-Jul-2009 2:43am Which is correct anyway?
It's nice that it came up. I had to write an essay on a composition test at work the other day and was struggling with this. |
| Kristal_Rose | (reply to they) posted 4-Jul-2009 2:12pm Apparently there are two similar looking cases. It may not be required when you are just rambling on about more adjective-like descriptors, but should be used when designating 'which' item you are describing: Not the stash 'that' I found in the carpet, but the stash 'that' I salvaged from the dogs beard and from between his toes.
If you're just describing: "Here, have some stash I rescued from my dog"; 'that' may not be necessary. Lo and behold though, I have a recent style guide for college composition, which says: Omission of that. Add the word [i]that[i] if there is any danger of misreading without it. Eg. Many citizens do not believe [that] the leaders of this administration are serious about reducing the defecit. Without [i]that[i], readers might at first think that the citizens don't believe the leaders. |
| Gomezy3k | posted 5-Jul-2009 10:25am LOL I use whatever sounds good to me. I could care less about being Politically Correct, Verbally Correct, or any other kind of correct. Why follow someone else's rules? I didn't get to add my input on whether I liked the idea or not, so I ain't gonna follow the rules. |
| they | (reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 5-Jul-2009 10:29am I can't remember what I finally settled on.
But it sounds like a judgement call to me.... and anyway, call center composition test proof readers probably wouldn't care either way. Thanks for the explanation. |
| Kristal_Rose | (reply to they) posted 5-Jul-2009 2:44pm ..or even know. |
| they | (reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 5-Jul-2009 4:07pm Yeah, that's what I was thinking. |
| Irene007 | (reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 5-Jul-2009 8:22pm Same old, same old I guess... It's festival season up here but the weather is not cooperating. No matter, I have fun anyway. I'm headed for the Tremblant Blues Festival up North next week. I'll be there for the 10 days... That's exhausting but a whole lot of fun! You remember Martin? Well he and Jamie came up a few weeks ago for a visit and I didn't even get to see them. I don't know what happened. They called, they were in my neighbourhood, they asked for directions and never showed up. What's worse, is that I was invited along with them to have dinner at a mutual friend's and they went without me! I called and asked our host to have her call me when she was free but she never did. They hopped on the plane the next day without a word... She has issues, I guess... I met our host a few days later and he said that he didn't even want to get into it. I don't even know what set her off. Maybe she was expecting a red carpet or something? She made it big in Brazil but I don't see much talk about her in her own town and she burned herself here with her attitude. Well I won't be booking her when she comes up again and I doubt that our local blues guru will either.... Oh well, her loss. |
| Kristal_Rose | (reply to Irene007) posted 6-Jul-2009 12:33am I've been missing out on most everything for about a year now, and getting back into the swing of things I see my body needs to reacclimatize. |
| Crayons | posted 6-Jul-2009 4:32pm I have a hard time concentrating on the meanings of what people are saying, sometimes. I think this helps a lot. |
| Irene007 | (reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 6-Jul-2009 5:10pm Tell me about it - I'm already tired and I haven't even started to pack... I was at the Jazz Fest last night - I had a great time but got home when the sun was getting up. No wonder I'm tired.... |
| autumnlight | posted 11-Jul-2009 5:15pm I can see myself saying both of those sentences - I don't know what would make me say that and what would make me drop it. |
| Melf | posted 28-Jul-2009 9:25am Always. |
| FauxLo | posted 7-Aug-2009 6:45pm I use it when I'm thinking about what I'm saying/posting, but if I'm just expressing a thought to a friend, I'm sure (edit:) that I skip it sometimes. |
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Funny that you should create this survey - I've often wondered why a sentence can have it and then not. I didn't go to English grammar school - only English high school so I don't know the "rules" of the language. I tend to insert it if it sounds right and it does seem to make things more clear. So what is its application anyway? I may speak the first sentence and write the second though....