When making a decision on engaging in a particular activity, how large a role does the legality of that activity play in your decision?

Of course. It's large. If it's something that is illegal now, but will be legal when I get older, why do it? Is it worth getting in trouble for? Will this be on my records somewhere?

major factor. I have to be extrememly careful to not reflect badly on Mary's business. She is under much scrutiny as it is, many eyes are on her because of what she is, so for me to fudge up in legal issues will most likely affect the office.

> Will this be on my records somewhere?

Kids today as opposed to when I was a young'n, are really hurting their futures with poorly made decisions. When we were there and we made our poorly made decisions, we wouldn't lose our driving licences, our jobs, or our future possibilities like kids now. It's gotta be pretty hard to be a kid these days.


By the way, that is not an available/usable excuse,

It depends on how illegal it is, I suppose. I don't care much about jay-walking or rolling through a stop sign or speeding...
It may be related to how likely it seems that I could get caught...
Also, whether I see the act as truly bad or not... victimless crimes, meh

It is not a factor, except maybe sometimes while driving.

If I think a law is fair, I'm not going to break it. If it isn't a fair law, I have no regard for it at all.

In this litigious world we live in, it is best to look at the legal matter of things...know how to protect yourself

It's actually a sad state of affairs when we must feel we have to always protect ourselves legally. This is the work of Satan...confusion.

Legality is USUALLY a major factor.

Fudge em

Typically a minor one, at least at a conscious level. At a subconscious level it might be higher. There are not that many illegal activities that I don't do just because they're illegal, although illegality plays some role in my not doing them.

It's the work of lawyers.

You have that right Linda. There are unscrupulous lawyers. I think when there is a loss of conscience, everything starts unraveling.

The worst thing about it is that the fear of being sued creates extra rules and regulations. People can't take their own risks because others are afraid to let them. Big example: skateboarding.

The legal system feels it has to protect everyone, for profit, of course. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? I think somewhere it has to do with insurance companies too.

I think so too. I prefer having the option to take risks and accept the responsibility myself.

Depends on what it is.

I don't remember ever thinking "Gosh, I'd really like to do x, shame it's illegal." and if I do happen to do things that are illegal, I'm not aware of it, so I'll have to say that legality is not a factor in my decision.

safety is another factor. legality never used to be a factor for me but now i could lose my professional license for illegal activity such as drug use etc....... so it is more in my thoughts.

I agree, I prefer having the option to take risks and accept the responsibility myself.

About two years ago, there was talk in the newspaper about children being required to have a helmet while riding their bicycles....without one they get a fine. I guess the city feels they need to make some money, so they'll think up some law to make people pay. When I was a kid we didn't have helmets and we survived. To me, it's about greed...follow the money trail.

It's one thing to require it for kids. I can kind of see that. It's worse when they are required for adults.

But, even for kids, where does it all end? It's control...and insurance companies, and the government. Again, we Americans aren't children, that need to be protected for every little thing. The government sure isn't protecting our borders, our food supply....the list goes on. I say much of these silly laws, they're only to try to make money for the local governments.

> About two years ago, there was talk in the newspaper about children
> being required to have a helmet while riding their bicycles....without
> one they get a fine. I guess the city feels they need to make some
> money, so they'll think up some law to make people pay. When I was
> a kid we didn't have helmets and we survived. To me, it's about
> greed...follow the money trail.

Here in Virginia, I think the law does require everyone to wear a helmet when riding a bicycle. It doesn't seem to be enforced though. Laws that are not enforced uniformly have a tendency to foster disrespect for all laws.

Generally, I am with Linda. If I think a law is fair and just, I have no problem obeying it. If it strikes me as unfair or unjust, I ignore it and try not to get caught.

Overall, legality is a minor factor for me.

I agree with laws to protect kids Adults don't need to be protected from themselves. Kids do, because they wouldn't know better otherwise, and it isn't their fault if their parents don't.

Legality is a factor for me. When you get a fat red light ticket, it's something to think about and should obey the red lights. My husband ran a red light, but the cameras caught him...

I am a law abiding citizen, but some laws are ridiculous.

I believe in laws that will prevent harm to others, but laws that only involve an individual, such as with helmets..it's a personal responsibility.

Obviously, there are many things children need to be protected from, but helmets? As a child, we didn't have helmets, we're still living, never heard of a child hurt because of no helmet.

They prevent concussions.

Drug laws involve only an individual.

I think it's 16 and under you have to wear one...but yeah,it isn't enforced.

Not a factor.

My own values keep me from doing anything too crazy.

But if I want to do something, I feel it is my choice. Since I would never do anything that would cause others harm, I don't even understand why there would be laws against doing whatever I'm doing.

But there are. So I break them.

What's next, gloves, nose and knee guards? As I've said, the kids in my day, we didn't have helmets, and I don't remember all those contraptions, and don't remember anyone having concussions. Not saying they don't happen at times. Sometimes we'd fall, scratch our knees, get up and start skating, or riding our bikes.... we survived.

I think there should be STIFF drug laws.

Laws to prevent people from medicating themselves (taking their own chances with their own lives) but no laws to protect kids from getting concussions? That's backwards.

People taking drugs, can be a threat to others, because they're not in their right minds. I still say STIFF DRUG LAWS. Children should be taught precautions.

> People taking drugs, can be a threat to others, because they're not
> in their right minds.

On this basis, alcohol should still be illegal. I believe most police officers will tell you they respond to more domestic violence calls where alcohol seems to be the cause rather than marijuana. But keep in mind that more alcohol was consumed per capita during Prohibition than at any time before or since. LSD use was mostly confined to a handful of writers, researchers and hippies before 1966, when it was outlawed. It grew greatly in popularity after it was outlawed. It's popularity has diminished quite a lot in the last couple of decades though. As a "recreational" (read: escape) drug, it is practically useless, as it causes a great deal of introspection and everyone has things inside themselves they don't like. LSD and the psychedelics in general tend to focus ones attention on these. This can be either disastrous or beneficial, depending on what you do with it.

> I still say STIFF DRUG LAWS.

Laws which are not, or cannot be uniformly enforced tend to foster disrespect for all laws. The only way to uniformly enforce drug laws would be to subject all citizens to basic police state tactics, like everyone being subject to random searches at any time. In this kind of environment, you might reduce illegal drug use of all kinds to a great extent while driving up the rate of alcoholism and suicide. I don't really see the benefit inherent in this scenario. The former Soviet Union was a case in point. The Soviets tried to hide it from the West, but the alcoholism and suicide rates they put up with were a scandal. And they still couldn't control heroin and cocaine use. In a police state like that, drugs like heroin and cocaine were easier to conceal than the smoke from a joint or a bong, so those were the drugs that tended to be more popular. Less likely to get caught while using them.

Bicycle helmets don't only prevent concussions, they also save lives. See for example:

Changes in traffic crash mortality rates attributed to use of alcohol, or lack of a seat belt, air bag, motorcycle helmet, or bicycle helmet, United States, 1982-2001. Cummings P. Rivara FP. Olson CM. Smith KM. Injury Prevention. 12(3):148-54, 2006 Jun.

AB OBJECTIVE: To estimate the contributions of five risk factors to changes in US traffic crash mortality: (1) alcohol use by drivers and pedestrians, (2) not wearing a seat belt, (3) lack of an air bag, (4) not wearing a motorcycle helmet, and (5) not wearing a bicycle helmet. DESIGN: Longitudinal study of deaths; attributable deaths were estimated using data from other studies. SETTING: US traffic crashes in 1982-2001. SUBJECTS: People who died in a crash. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Counts of deaths attributed to each risk factor, change in rates of deaths, and counts of lives saved by changes in risk factor prevalence. RESULTS: There were 858 741 traffic deaths during the 20 year period. Estimated deaths attributed to each factor were: (1) alcohol use, 366 606; (2) not wearing a seat belt, 259 239; (3) lack of an air bag, 31 377; (4) no motorcycle helmet, 12 095; (5) no bicycle helmet, 10 552. Over the 20 years, mortality rates attributed to each risk factor declined: alcohol by 53%; not wearing a seat belt by 49%; lack of an air bag by 17%; no motorcycle helmet by 74%; no bicycle helmet by 39%. There were 153 168 lives saved by decreased drinking and driving, 129 297 by increased use of seat belts, 4305 by increased air bag prevalence, 6475 by increased use of motorcycle helmets, and 239 by increased use of bicycle helmets. CONCLUSIONS: Decreased alcohol use and increased use of seat belts were associated with substantial reductions in crash mortality from 1982 through 2001. Increased presence of air bags, motorcycle helmets, and bicycle helmets were associated with smaller reductions.

Also see:

Ivers, Rebecca. Systematic reviews of bicycle helmet research. Injury Prevention 2007;13:190; doi:10.1136/ip.2007.015966 (accessed online at http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/1...)

"It seems intuitive that bicycle helmets would be an effective means of reducing head injury, and indeed helmet manufacturers and standards associations worldwide conduct rigorous tests to determine the impact absorption and other qualities of helmets. It is however, important to go beyond laboratory tests and understand whether helmets reduce injuries in the event of a crash in real-life; hence the review by Thompson et al.1 This review included five well conducted case-control studies and found that helmets provide a 63 - 88% reduction in the risk of head, brain and severe brain injury for all ages of bicyclists. Helmets were found to provide equal levels of protection for crashes involving motor vehicles (69%) and crashes from all other causes (68%). Furthermore, injuries to the upper and mid facial areas were found to be reduced by 65%, although helmets did not prevent lower facial injuries. The review authors concluded that bicycle helmets are an effective means of preventing head injury."

That doesn't mean that wearing a bicycle helmet should be a legal requirement. Indeed, there is some evidence that legislation is not very effective when it comes to promoting helmet use, and many countries are favouring education programmes directed at schoolchildren instead. Regardless, wearing a bicycle helmet has been proven to be an effective way of preventing both death and serious injury (including brain injuries which may lead to a permanent deficit) and should be encouraged for everyone, and especially children.

Not all drugs make people like that. Some actually mellow people out and make them less likely to be a threat.

Thank you for the information. I agree alcohol is just as bad, and it is a legal drug, which is bad for the public. I often think people do use drugs, legal, and illegal to cope, to "escape", but it's just too bad, they don't do something healthy.

I wasn't raised in the "drug era". Never took an illegal drug. I do, however, take prescribed drugs, and I hate them. I think prescribed drugs can be just as terrible. I think this country needs to turn back to natural foods, natural healing methods, maybe they won't need to feel they have to escape, be healthier in order to cope with life. I know of a lovely woman, but she's addicted to prescribed drugs. She's in deep trouble with them.

Thank you Biggles...I didn't take in account, when making my statement, this is another age in time, more traffic, etc. Thank you for the information.

I always thought someone riding a motorcycle should wear one, but now, thinking about it, with how urbanized we are becoming, more traffic, and such, children/adults should wear the helmets on bicycles.

God warned us of "pharma", and especially if it gets in the wrong hands. I think often the reason people turn to drugs, is peer pressure, poor health.

I know of some drugs that will "mellow" people out, I worked in a convalescent home once.

> Never took an illegal drug.
> I do, however, take prescribed drugs, and I hate them. I think prescribed
> drugs can be just as terrible. I think this country needs to turn
> back to natural foods, natural healing methods, maybe they won't need
> to feel they have to escape, be healthier in order to cope with life.
> I know of a lovely woman, but she's addicted to prescribed drugs.
> She's in deep trouble with them.

Yeah, our friend Jim (yes that Jim, we are all living together now) is in a bad way right now, due largely to prescription drugs. He has rheumatoid arthritis, gout, emphysema, diabetes, congestive heart failure, etc, etc.

The drug he is most dependent on is prednisone, which he takes for the RA, though it is destroying him slowly. The prednisone compromises his immune system. When he was diagnosed with gout a year or so ago, they started giving him colchicine, which I will never understand. The Dr. who prescribed the colchicine knew he was taking prednisone. The colchicine of course, also inhibits the production of white blood cells, further compromising his immune system, so he started coming down with all kinds of opportunistic infections, fungal, bacterial, etc. So they took him off the colchicine and started him on allopurinol, which I am not familiar with. Meanwhile, his long term use of the prednisone led to the congestive heart failure, the diabetes and severe muscular dystonia in his neck, so he can't lift his head on his own. He is 10 years older than I am, never took illegal drugs, but he he is in far worse shape than I ever expect to be. Basically, he is sitting around swallowing prescribed vicodin, prednisone and other stuff, staving off constant pain and waiting to die.

I should think that in the good old days when kids would ride up and down their quiet street on their bikes, that serious injuries would have been more unusual - though I imagine that they were far from unheard of. I was talking to a gentleman a few weeks ago who had fallen over from standing - just slipped - and had hit his head and is now permanently brain damaged. He has improved a lot, but he was in hospital for almost a year and his speech is still bad enough for people to assume he has learning difficulties. If you can do that by just falling over, I would think you could do yourself a fair bit of harm falling from even a slow moving bike in the absence of other traffic. Obviously we don't encourage people to wear helmets when they're just walking about though!

Oh my God, the poor man. Jim doesn't have to die. He needs to go to a holistic clinic, get himself off those horrendous drugs. Or possibly better yet, he needs to go to an acupuncturist/herbalist, and then wean himself off the drugs...can't do it immediately. It's all about our immune system, and the medical community is helping to destroy it..

I think once the profit motive is taken out of health care field, we'll start seeing good health come back. I don't see it happening any day soon.

First, Jim has to become more positive, watch his emotions.

My husband had a bout with gout about a year ago. My husband started putting fresh, peeled ginger and taped to his toes. Then he drank "cherry juice" from Trader Joe's. He did this for a couple weeks. We put half juice, half bottled water. The swelling went down in his toes, no more pain. He hasn't had any problem since. The reason for the ginger was to get the circulation back into the toes....ginger has a warming effect. I learned this tip from Rector-Page's book "Healthy Healing". It might behoove you to look up this book, it discusses congestive heart, diabetes, many other things. There is another book you might be interested, "Eat Right for (4) Your Type", by D'Adamo, regarding foods our bodies won't tolerate, therefore can make us sick.

Biggles, let's face it, life is a challenge. There are dangers around us, but I am fearful of a ever growing government that will try to "legalize" us to death, this is what I am concerned about. Obviously, everyone needs to show caution. especially with children. I see much of the problem is due to too much urbanization, overpopulation concentrated in small areas. I don't think this was meant to be. It's great for those that want power, and control.

Some people turn to illegal drugs to get what they aren't getting from doctors.

And if a drug doesn't make someone threatening, why should it be illegal?

It's a sad state of affairs. I'm not making a judgement, just feel sad that people have to feel so bad to feel they need drugs, legal or illegal.

> Oh my God, the poor man. Jim doesn't have to die. He needs to go
> to a holistic clinic, get himself off those horrendous drugs. Or
> possibly better yet, he needs to go to an acupuncturist/herbalist,
> and then wean himself off the drugs...can't do it immediately. It's
> all about our immune system, and the medical community is helping
> to destroy it..
>

Yeah, the problem is Jim believes in the drugs. He has asked about herbs before, I made a few suggestions, but he won't take them. He was a registered nurse before he became too ill to work. The whole reason for the prednisone is to suppress his immune system. RA is an autoimmune disease. For some reason, his immune system is overactive and is attacking his joints. I'm not really sure about the causes of this. I saw one book written by a doctor (whose name I don't remember) who suggested stress as a contributing cause of a few autoimmune diseases, including rheumatoid arthritis.



> First, Jim has to become more positive, watch his emotions.
>
> My husband had a bout with gout about a year ago. My husband started
> putting fresh, peeled ginger and taped to his toes. Then he drank
> "cherry juice" from Trader Joe's. He did this for a couple weeks.
> We put half juice, half bottled water. The swelling went down in
> his toes, no more pain. He hasn't had any problem since. The reason
> for the ginger was to get the circulation back into the toes....ginger
> has a warming effect. I learned this tip from Rector-Page's book
> "Healthy Healing". It might behoove you to look up this book, it
> discusses congestive heart, diabetes, many other things. There is
> another book you might be interested, "Eat Right for (4) Your Type",
> by D'Adamo, regarding foods our bodies won't tolerate, therefore
> can make us sick.
>


I've heard about cherry juice working for gout before. I suggested that to Jim as well, but again, he believes in the drugs. I know about the rubifacient (warming) qualities of ginger. It is also a good antibiotic/antiviral in conjunction with other herbs like golden seal, echinacea and yarrow. Also, made into a fairly strong tea (very spicy by the way, most folks used to the dried powder version of ginger might not realize that fresh ginger root is hot) it is an effective diaphoretic, inducing sweating, which is useful in bringing down fever.

I read through a couple of my herb books a while back, looking for alternatives to colchicine for Jim, but the only thing I came up with is a plant called colchicum, which is the autumn crocus. This is the plant that saffron comes from. The book did not give details for use. What it said was that it was a dangerous plant, poisonous in fact. Interestingly, the toxic component of the plant is the same colchicine that the Dr. had prescribed for Jim.

I'm glad to see you're informed on natural healing. I know many who have or are in the medical field, and they won't change, because that is what they've been taught.

There is an excellent clinic about 30 minutes from here that is ran by two former AMA doctors who changed to holistic medicine...plus the nurses that are working there.

An acupuncturist once told me the problem with prescribed drugs are the pharmaceutical company only extract, the most acting part of the herb, and throw away the helpers in the plant. This is the reason for all the side effects. No one can patent a medicine that is in its natural form. The pharmaceutical companies want to patent their concoctions.

A major factor, considering I would lose my job in a New York minute if I got arrested for anything larger than littering. That doesn't mean I don't do minor illegal things, like minor traffic violations, etc. Its best to stay on the safe side.

Honestly, I believe that as long as it's not going to hurt anyone and it's not obvious that people will get busted, it's okay. Hell, my gf and I still want to go up to a certain obscured place in the next town over and have car sex. I think it's really tempting, and although illegal, I don't think it will harm anyone.