Do you believe that cats and dogs have the ability to reason?

Yes, I believe cats and dogs do have the ability to reason. When I was little bigger than a cat myself, we lived in New London, Connecticut and had a number of cats. Our neighbors who lived in the flat upstairs from us had a dog they kept ties to the fence in the backyard, near a barn. Just outside the barn, my father kept his fishing boat on a trailer. One of our cats, Jezebel, used lay down on the boat just beyond the reach of the chain keeping the dog tied to the fence. That dog used to go crazy, barking, yelping and howling at Jezebel, who would languidly lay on the boats gunwale, bathing herself and staring calmly at this dog half choking himself to death trying to get at her.

Many years later, living in San Francisco with my wife, we had a dog named Honey. We didn't want the dog begging at the table when we ate supper, so we would tell her to go to bed when supper was served. Her bed was a blanket on the floor outside the kitchen in the hallway. As we sat and ate, Honey would little by little scootch herself, bed and all, from the hallway into the kitchen. After a while, she would be laying, on her bed, right beside my chair, staring up at me hopefully as I ate.

I am not qualified to answer this question.

Yes, they both have the ability to reason.

Dog - My friend's dog, Morgan, is quite cleaver. If my friend tells her to get out of the kitchen, Morgan sticks one of her hind paws in another room while leaving the rest of her body in the kitchen. Morgan, completely on her own, clearly reasons that she is in another room if part of her body clears the threshold of the kitchen.

Cat - I've seen many cats jump confidently from varying distances. I've also seen cats judge a distance too great for them to jump safely. If this isn't reasoning, then I don't know what is.

Yes they do..the dog's are somewhat limited but they can figure things out. Cat's are very smart and can train their people quite well...

My opinion solely based on my cat Jughead who is so dum!

I think so.

I don't think so. I think that requires brain parts that they don't have enough of. I don't have a specific example--I just think everything they do suggests an inability to reason.

Yes.
One time my two goofy mutts ran out of the back yard, across the park and into a neighbors yard. Most of the yards had a fence between them and the park, except for a few and the easeways here and there. So they were in a yard with a fence. I naturally freak because those two goofy mutts were in someones yard so I yell "HEYYYYY!" I consider both of them to be very smart, but the most responsible one looks up surprised...and happy that mom was there. she started to run to me, but of course the fence was there so she started this panic back and forth running. I yelled her name to get her attention, she stopped and looked and I yell "GO AROUND THE HOUSE" motioning with my arm in an exaggerated motion. She promptly turns to look at the house, looked at the yard like she was 'reasoning it out' than ran like hell around the house, into the park and straight to me.
That's one example of many.

My Mary's cat will watch the other cats, watch us and when it seems she feels confident she understands something will she then participate. She never did kitten things like chase, untill she watched the other cats for a good long while until she finally jumped in and chased. She was the best kitten because she never got into anything. she had to watch something, until one day she would be doing it. Even treats. I would try giving her a treat and she would give me this dirty look like "wht thee hell you want me to do with that?" until she would see the other cats clamoring over each other for the treats, then she would come to get the treat. She still wouldn't eat it, but at least she did not give me a dirty look anymore when I asked her.

No

> --I just think everything
> they do suggests an inability to reason.

Hmm... I just thought of another example of cat behavior that suggests to me an ability to reason.

Back in 1975, my mother got a cat she named Elektra. This cat was exploring the house and wandered into my mother's bedroom. She jumped up on the dresser and was walking along it until she came to the mirror attached to the back. She glanced at the mirror and saw her reflection, whereupon she stopped and did a quick double-take. Then she sniffed the mirror, pawed at her reflection a couple of times, then sat down and looked back and forth for a second. Then, she walked down to the edge of the mirror frame and leaned around to look between the back of the mirror and the wall. Even reached around to the back of the mirror with a paw, apparently trying to find this "other cat".

Now, this was no particular genius of a cat either. We never could break her of chewing on electrical cords. One evening, she just chewed through the cord of my brothers guitar amp and was shocked so severely she did a double backflip halfway across the living room. My mom got a local vet to see the cat right away, even though it was past closing. As luck would have it, this incident happened about 20 minutes after I had swallowed two hits of blotter acid. No one else was home at the time, so I ended up going with my mom to the vet and helping the vet to hold down this cat as the exam table was warping and changing colors and my mom's and the vet's faces were melting. Such fun! The cat died a couple of days later, there was nothing the vet could really do.

Anyway, the next time you hear someone ask, "What's in a name?", tell them this story...

Most cats don't even notice their reflections, let alone look around the back of the mirror to find the "other" cat. I've heard of a few that do, but I think it's rare. Either way, though, I think there is animal behavior that may look rational to us but which is purely instinctual. We have a tendency to attribute human thought processes to animals because it's difficult to understand how something exists mentally without the power of thought. But I'm not sure many animals actually have it.

The story about Elektra is funny, though. Perhaps she was capable of reasoning to the extent that she even knew her name (and had a strong sense of the ironic).

Yes my cats they really do have the ability to reason with me

of course

My animals comunicate with me all the time, the abilaty to reason? No, they want what they want NOW!!

They're more reasonable than people. People think too much. Think about it.... a cat is staring off in space for a long time and I truly believe something is going on in that head. What other reason would a person say "animals are dumb" than that they might be a wee bit threatened by them having "smarts". If the person didn't care then they wouldn't care if they were smart. I'm smart but I'm also an animal. grrrr....

Of course. All animals have this ability. After all, that's where we get it from

> My animals comunicate with me all the time, the abilaty to reason?
> No, they want what they want NOW!!

My dog is a border colley. We got her when she was a year old. We have a fairly large yard, considering we live in a city. It took me less than a week to teach her to stay in the yard. She will not run into the street, regardless of the provocation. She will chase stray cats out of the yard, but she comes to a screeching halt at the curb. Sometimes, after letting her out at night for her last pee, I have dozed off, but she is always still in the yard in the morning.

Of course they do.

I love my cats, and they do think of a fashion, but it doesn't quite appear to be at the reasoning level, more just weighing or finding alternatives if the first option doesn't work out. They do have strong emotional and spiritual minds though.

Dogs on the other hand definitely appear to reason. They see the probability of something occurring and develop a strategy to prepare for it.

In all these cat examples though, it comes down to surmise and react, without seeing more than a single step beyond.

Cat jumping sure is amazing though. The cats I see leaping on to counters do so within about 1/4" precision, no wasted energy.

About the most advanced reasoning I've ever seen from a cat is to do something their owner likes or likes, depending on if their needs are being met, and even that qualifies more as a reaction than much in the way of projecting unseen circumtances. A cat can see as far as 'This critter has got to come out of it's burrow eventually'. A dog can see a bit further, as in 'Perhaps this burrowing critter has another exit I should be investigating'.

A good shepherding dog can understand instructions, apply them to novel situations, and 'outsmart' other creatures. They know for instance if they are going to be in trouble when their owner returns, and will make efforts to alleviate consequences.

I don't think the cat can think as far as 'How can I antagonize the dog this afternoon?', but when they see an opportunity they take it and know what it is they are accomplishing in the moment. I think a dog could though.

Both cats and dogs can put on acts, with different types of sophistication.
A cat can put on a more sophisticated act, making acts of malevolence appear like acts of innocence.
A dog can put on an act as part of a strategic plan.

> About the most advanced reasoning I've ever seen from a cat is to
> do something their owner likes or likes, depending on if their needs
> are being met, and even that qualifies more as a reaction than much
> in the way of projecting unseen circumtances.


That reminds me; back in the early days of our relationship, Sharon and I were part of a menage a trois, and we used to spend weekends with our friend Jim. Sharon had a cat at home named Cassie. This cat did not like it when Sharon was out for the weekend. She used to show her displeasure within hours of Sharon's return by crapping in the bathtub. This would happen every single time Sharon was gone over a weekend.

Yes. Dog pee's in house, dog gets his nose shoved in it, a mild telling off and plonked outside, dog reasons that he should not pee in the house.

I'm sure they are able to remember a chain of events in a logical sequence that's repeated.

Yeah, cats do things like that.

Of course.

They are spectacular hunters, which requires reasoning and planning.

When Joonie is thinking about sliding past me out the front door, I can hear the gears turning in her sneaky little brain.

Birds too.

I toss peanuts everyday into my front yard for Blue Jays and squirrels to eat. The Jays sit up in the branches of my Oak, considering when it is safe to fly down to grab a nut. Once they land, they quickly size things up - picking up a few peanuts, weighing and shaking them -- and fly away with the best choice.

> Birds too.
>
> I toss peanuts everyday into my front yard for Blue Jays and squirrels
> to eat. The Jays sit up in the branches of my Oak, considering when
> it is safe to fly down to grab a nut. Once they land, they quickly
> size things up - picking up a few peanuts, weighing and shaking them
> -- and fly away with the best choice.


Yeah, I left birds out of this question on purpose though. I know they can reason, despite the disparaging expression "birdbrain". Birds make me realize that brain size is not the only factor relating to intelligence. It may well be the least important factor. I related a little story about a smart bird in this survey: http://surveycentral.org/survey/30737.html ninth reponse down.

Sneaky little birds.

Have you seen the videos online of the birds that robbed the car wash of its coins or the ones that drop nuts in the street for cars to run over and crack?

No, I haven't seen those. I will look them up though.

Here's the snopes article about the carwash birds: http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/carwash.asp

And the nut crackers:

Thanks, they.

Too bad you are several states away, or I'd invite you over for a wake/bake and coffee.

I'm ready to begin.... but really could use some company.

Ah, you are too kind. I would love that. Reminds me though, I haven't yet put on my first pot of coffee. BRB.

Oh, I want to ask you something, hold on...

holding on....