Does religion discourage independent thinking?

No. Religion does not. Ones faith might. If someone wants to be a member of a particular church, thinking is certainly not discouraged, but more or less patterned to fit the rest of the groups ideals.

Yes. Someone who does not belong to a church or religion may think this.

Enheduanna's answer is going to be hawt I just know it

Funny, I'm just reading a story about Galileo and the inquisition.

Yes

> If someone wants to be a member of a particular church, thinking is certainly not discouraged,
> but more or less patterned to fit the rest of the groups ideals.

That, to me, discourages independent thinking.

*sigh* hence why I also said this:
> Yes. Someone who does not belong to a church or religion may think this.

> *sigh* hence why I also said this:
> |> Yes. Someone who does not belong to a church or religion may
> think this.

Then, we're both happy

conform or be cast out

I'd say yes. If you're overly religious, you tend to block out everything else except that which your religion teaches you, and won't be as open-minded as people who aren't very religious or at all.

Yes of course it does at least i think it has something to do with it

No i will never conform and still go to church and just be myself "hickup"

No, not at all. Geeze.

Some people feel it does, but it shouldn't.

No. I consider myself a Christian, but I don't blindly believe everything someone tells me pertaining to Christianity. I come to my own beliefs through my own way of thinking. Sometimes my beliefs go along with what other Christians believe, sometimes they don't. This is probably one reason I don't go to church. I don't like people telling me that I should think a certain scripture means this or that. Why should I believe it? Because you say it? Who are you to tell me what was meant by that?

> No. I consider myself a Christian, but I don't blindly believe everything
> someone tells me pertaining to Christianity. I come to my own beliefs
> through my own way of thinking.

What about the resurrection story, for example. How do you come to your own beliefs on this other than reading it in a book?

Traditions, customs and unwritten social rules tend to discourage independent thinking at times.

My point is that 20 people can read the same exact thing and come up with 20 different ideas from it. I don't believe something just because someone tells me that I should. I believe that parts of the Bible are fabricated, if not completely false. I also believe a lot of it is true. However, I'm not going to argue religion with you. You have your beliefs and I can respect that. I'm not going to try to force my beliefs on you and I'd appreciate the same courtesy. I've read your comments about religion and don't feel this conversation needs to go any further.

> My point is that 20 people can read the same exact thing and come
> up with 20 different ideas from it. I don't believe something just
> because someone tells me that I should. I believe that parts of the
> Bible are fabricated, if not completely false. I also believe a lot
> of it is true. However, I'm not going to argue religion with you.
> You have your beliefs and I can respect that. I'm not going to try
> to force my beliefs on you and I'd appreciate the same courtesy. I've
> read your comments about religion and don't feel this conversation
> needs to go any further.


That's fine. I am only on SC to debate, not to force my beliefs on anyone.

Get over it, Wicksy.

I hate to point out the obvious, but that is true of any ideology, including liberalism.

> How do you come to
> your own beliefs on this other than reading it in a book?

How do you know evolution is true? Did you come up with the theory yourself by observing it take place, or did you read it in a book?

I did just read about it but evolution is now fact based on evidence.

The bible has no evidence at all.

By the way, I went to the Charles Darwin exhibition at the Natural History Museum in London today. I loved it!!

Isn't that in the definition?

Some people would say the Bible does have evidence. The real issue, though, is that it's not about evidence. It's about faith.

> Some people would say the Bible does have evidence. The real issue,
> though, is that it's not about evidence. It's about faith.

Exactly, and faith is what people hold when they don't understand or explain something...a bit like hoping.

Faith is not based on evidence so it can't be taken as fact!

I take it you're playing devil's advocate because you agree with what I say, right?

I don't think it's fair to say that faith is something only people who lack understanding have. I know many people who take a very critical approach to the Bible, have clearly asked questions and even have other explanations, and yet who are still religious. Choosing to have faith in something doesn't mean that you reject science. It's true that faith is not based on evidence and so can't be taken as fact, but such a statement misses the point: faith is not meant to be taken as fact. It's like saying that language is not based on geometry, and therefore language can't be math. Your response will likely be: "Of course not; language isn't math." (Except you'll say "maths," since you're British.) But that's my point: language isn't math, just like faith isn't science. They are two completely different constructs.

I'm not exactly playing devil's advocate. Although I don't believe in God or in the divine nature of the Bible, I interact with a lot of religious people and I think I have some (albeit limited) understanding of how faith works. No offense, but I think I have more understanding of it than you do, which is why I keep trying to explain it to you. I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering, because you don't seem willing to entertain what I'm saying at all. It's rather like trying to convince a fundamentalist that God didn't write the Bible and that the earth wasn't created is seven days. You have decided that you know what you know and that anyone who disagrees is wrong. But that's not how it works. As with many things, there are shades of gray, and not everyone of faith believes the way you think they do.

> I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering, because you don't seem willing
> to entertain what I'm saying at all.

I appreciate what you are doing; really, I do! You have given me an insight of how faith works and I am thankful for that.

I am currently reading a book on religion right now because I believe that, in order to improve my debates on the subject, I need to know more about it.

However, my views won't change on God/religion until he/she/it comes down and speaks to me. I would have thought that God would want to teach me about all the wrongdoings I have done in my life (ie. non-believer) and show me the way. I don't think God would ignore me and punish me for NOT believing in a book written by humans!

GOD...I await your call

Don't hold your breath...

What book are you reading? There are a couple of interesting books about God, one by Karen Armstrong and one by Jack Miles, that you might find interesting, if you're not reading them already.

> Don't hold your breath...
>
> What book are you reading? There are a couple of interesting books
> about God, one by Karen Armstrong and one by Jack Miles, that you
> might find interesting, if you're not reading them already.


Yep, reading the Karen Armstrong one (good so far) and also an old text book from my A-Level days (although I didnt actually study R.S.).

They both look great next to God Delusion and God is not great

To be honest, I say neither or both. I am not religious, nor am I against religion. If I said neither, I would be happier with my answer. It is up to each individual to not allow themselves to be manipulated into pointing the fickled finger of blame for a human weakness. Some people need religion to make them stronger. Some need to walk away to be stronger.

Your point is you think religions discourage independence. It is your perception that they are not thinking independently because they are thinking along the same page as their fellow worshippers which is, ironically, their point. Independent thinkers that are not wlecome in that particular religion need to walk away. Judging them for staying is just as wrong as those that judge those that do not believe the same way as they do.

Forcing people to believe what you believe is the same thing. You sound like a preacher talking from the pulpit sometimes when you talk about how wrong it is to eat meat, or believe in spiritual ways, or whether or not ghosts or spirits exist. You often challenge people in their beliefs hoping to tripthem up and put a "gotcha!" on them. I have seen Baptists do the same thing.

On the other side of the coin...God is talking to you all the time. You do not here because you do not believe. Simple. If you want to hear God, than say you believe, but you have to feel it from the insides heart and soul. But since you may not believe in your soul, than you will have to start there. Once you establish you have a soul, and you bleieve there is a God than you will hear answers to your questions.
Only an independent thinker can do this on their own, without the assistance of a church. Dependent thinkers who want to do this need a church.

> On the other side of the coin...God is talking to you all the time.
> You do not here because you do not believe. Simple. If you want to
> hear God, than say you believe, but you have to feel it from the insides
> heart and soul. But since you may not believe in your soul, than you
> will have to start there. Once you establish you have a soul, and
> you bleieve there is a God than you will hear answers to your questions.
> Only an independent thinker can do this on their own, without the
> assistance of a church. Dependent thinkers who want to do this need
> a church.

Sorry, but I don't believe that God only speaks to those that believe. To me, that is part of the whole con. That's a way of forcing them to believe in something that they wouldn't believe in normally.

I can see the chaplin watching this unfold and then saying to himself 'Gotcha'

> Forcing people to believe what you believe is the same thing. You
> sound like a preacher talking from the pulpit sometimes when you talk
> about how wrong it is to eat meat, or believe in spiritual ways, or
> whether or not ghosts or spirits exist. You often challenge people
> in their beliefs hoping to tripthem up and put a "gotcha!" on them.
> I have seen Baptists do the same thing.

I don't force people to believe anything. I also don't go around in my life telling people what to do (quite the contrary). However, I use this site to let a little steam off. This works well for me.

Just to point this out, I NEVER said it is wrong to eat meat. It is how we treat them that is wrong.

The chaplain has nothing to do with what you believe. You are in the con game, you are conned by what you believe if you think that others are that easily manipulated.

Oh, sorry about the meat thing, you touted vegetarianism. And the way you spread the word about how animals are handled seemed to be directed at people who ate meat. It almost felt like we were suposed to stop eating meat becasue of how you felt about the animals. They seemed angry enough I felt I had to defend myself for eating meat.

> Oh, sorry about the meat thing, you touted vegetarianism. And the
> way you spread the word about how animals are handled seemed to be
> directed at people who ate meat. It almost felt like we were suposed
> to stop eating meat becasue of how you felt about the animals. They
> seemed angry enough I felt I had to defend myself for eating meat.

It's okay.

Animals are treated horrendously and it will get worse and worse with the rise in human population. All I do is spread the word: you can listen or tell me where to go!

How do you feel about people who don't eat meat but do eat gluten products and whatnot? Because that's going to be me by proxy for a while.

> How do you feel about people who don't eat meat but do eat gluten
> products and whatnot? Because that's going to be me by proxy for a
> while.

Why would I hae a problem with gluten foods??

Why aren't you eating meat for a while then?

No, of course not. Cults discourage independent thinking, but not religion.

Maybe a little bit