Can being vocal disguise incompetence?

Yeah, this can happen. I've known people like this.

People who do this are only fooling the suckers. Hopefully one of those suckers isn't the boss. Everyone else snickers to each other about how dumb these vocal phonies look. Competent people tend to outcast the incompetent ones pretty quick, as a defense to their resentment.

N/A to me do not work and am retired

You betcha *wink*

I can think of a couple cases where someone was just average but vocal and they got a lot of attention, more than they should given their abilities. Also, I suspect they got paid more than others because of the squeaky wheel effect. But, they were not incompetent, and if they were I suspect they would have been fired since they were not liked by many, including the bosses. I think people who are too vocal get worked around. For example, people hold private impromptu meetings when they are not around. Or, they simply don't get invited to some meetings.

sometimes true sometimes not. i do work with someone who is bullying and outspoken and he isn't completely incompetent. he can do the basic parts of the job and is experienced but he cannot work the computer well and he is belligerent to anyone who disagrees.

Possibly.

I've run up against a few people who are very vocal, yell and scream, and are very competent. I know a woman who was a college administrator, is very vocal, and very competent...she has high blood pressure. I know another gentleman, who is the same, very competent. I know a woman that is vocal, and incompetent in leadership. When I come up against a person that is vocal, either way, I "turn the other cheek", try to understand why they are doing it. I always say you can catch more flies with honey than you can vinegar. Strangely, we've had members want to boot the vocal ones out, but I always try to mediate. I guess this has to do with being the middle child...

The truth will usually out in these situations. Eventually.

?? Yes, worst employee ever, but.... (knows how to bullcrap other people)

Yes, if you want people to think you're competent, being vocal does do the trick.

Yes, Shirley is the worst employee ever, but she can talk anybody into believing she is the most important person in the place, the one with all the answers, the only one who's indispensible. When the boss asks a question, she's the first to speak up and because she speaks with authority and an impressive vocabulary he believes her, even though you know she's full of it. She gets away with it because she's got all the others completely duped by the power of her personality. She can cover up her mistakes with doubletalk so it's always somebody else's fault. She relies on you and the others to keep the office running while she takes all the credit. She's got a gift for manipulation. If you try to expose her, it will backfire on you. You can't shut her up, you can't kill her.. . can you?! Hmmm.

This is pretty much how academia works.

If you talk enough, you never have time to prove if your words have truth to them.

For instance you could spend four hours in my kitchen telling me what a great cook you are and never get around to cooking anything.

Alas, I am somewhat one of these people. It's not that I can't do the things I talk about, but I am much more facile with talk than action of any sort.

I'm not the bullying or boasting type though, just a plain-spoken intelligent know-it-all problem-solver who likes to be helpful. I don't talk to manipulate or cover-up anything.

Perhaps the bully/manipulators think of themselves in the same light though.

In some cases it can, but in most cases, the people that actually know what they're talking about will recognize this person imcompetence.

Hey! Who brought my mother into this?!?

Yes it works. The squeaky wheel is broke but gets the most attention. Attention gets noticed and if a boss or co worker has had enough of the squeak and squack they tend to cave in to get it to shut the fudge up.

Huh? WTF do the answer choices have to do with anything?

The answer is - absolutely there are people out there who do very well who don't know crap but can talk their way through everything and sound important. Most of the $200k a year guys in my office are like this. I've come to find out that it's 30% technical knowledge and 70% bullcrap and arrogance that get you to the top.

Yep. Even more true in the arts, and more so yet in politics. It's all marketing these days.

> Yes, Shirley is the worst employee ever, but she can talk anybody
> into believing she is the most important person in the place, the
> one with all the answers, the only one who's indispensible. When
> the boss asks a question, she's the first to speak up and because
> she speaks with authority and an impressive vocabulary he believes
> her, even though you know she's full of it. She gets away with it
> because she's got all the others completely duped by the power of
> her personality. She can cover up her mistakes with doubletalk so
> it's always somebody else's fault. She relies on you and the others
> to keep the office running while she takes all the credit. She's
> got a gift for manipulation. If you try to expose her, it will backfire
> on you. You can't shut her up, you can't kill her.. . can you?!
> Hmmm.

Wow, this topic must have a visceral meaning for you; you directly answered my question...comprehensively.

The inspiration for this is a subordinate of mine. When I first got back to DC (April/May - slightly ahead of my family), I was told that Shirley was a top examiner by virtue of experience, knowledge, and work ethic. I've since discovered that the complete antithesis is true. She's nothing but a lazy, incompetent big-mouth. But most of the other examiners seek her advice.

So, what did I do/am doing? I basically did nothing but observe for the first 60 days. Plus, I believe that a first-line supervisor should be a working supervisor. So, I took on a case load (unlike every other supervisor in this staff) in addition to my supervisory duties. This way no one can accuse me of coming in an barking orders right away or say that I don't "walk the line" like they do. The claims examiners in my unit have fewer cases than the three other units because of this. So, last month, everyone was declaring me a saint, "you're the best boss ever, blah, blah, blah." Then, after I did a full merit review of Shirley, I placed her on a PIP (personal improvement plan); this basically means she has 90 days to get her act together or she's fired. Now, you may not be aware of this; but it is extremely hard to fire a Federal employee after they have so many years in Federal service. So, my ability to place Shirley on a PIP was quite a coup, and clear evidence that she is no fudging good. I also told everyone in my unit that the only people who can give advice were the senior examiner and me because the various opinions floating around about the law and the accompanying procedure manual were very often wrong, and the most recent audit had us falling below the standards.

Well, as you might imagine, I became a "bad guy" very quickly. Some people have expressed to me in an "open door" session that they now have trouble trusting me because of what I did to poor Shirley. One woman even made it very clear, that she would do whatever it took to keep her job. (She weighs an easy 250lbs; how gross is that?)

I am a little nonplussed as to how to handle this. I feel like holding a meeting while sampling Shirley's cases to prove how horrid she is. But I am obviously not going to do that. Anyway, I've about 60 days to go, so I guess I'll just fire her.

I say just wait the 60 days and fire her. More than likely, she made up some bs story and told everyone (which is why everyone thinks your the bad guy) that you don't know about, which is the real reason why everyone doesn't like you right now, rather than the "don't give legal advice". If she sticks around, you'll probabbly just get more grief in the long run, unless she gets transfered.

As for people hating you right now, or whatever is the case, that will probabbly pass. As you said, eariler they were all like "you're the best boss ever, blah blah blah, and now they're saying you're the worst boss ever". Its probabbly irrelavant because they'd probably just flip flop back to liking you again.


Holding the meeting will ruin her employment chances, not just from your department, but may also cause you to create enemies.

Close but usually they are found out

I like Shirley, but only because she's not my co-worker.

Angela (my Shirley) likes to pretend to be the boss. I say, "why not?"