Do people have a free will or are they programmed like robots?

It feels like free will but I can't prove that that's not just a really persistent delusion.

What's free will? I am asking that as both a philosophical and a pragmatic question.

I think for the most part people have free will. That also means that for the most part people are responsible for their own fate instead of blaming their circumstances. I mean yes there are exceptions. Then again I am kinda a conservative libertarian by most people on SC standards.

Humans have free will. It's just that some people ACT like they're programmed like robots/brainwashed and don't make much of an effort to think for themselves.

Both. Really? Some people are more "robotic" than others. But it's obvious that even the most predictable person has free will, because with free will comes stubbornness and personal values--two things that everyone, whether in small or large quantities. I have more free will though. I ended up with a disability that somehow helps me "shake off" propaganda.

Of course, environment has a big impact on us all.

We have free will. Some people think every decision we make is based in some part on previous experiences, and that our decisions would be different if our experiences were different. They think that means we really have no free will. I call hooey.

People have the illusion of free will. No one is controlling us, and yet the universe, with all its variables, is deterministic. And thus, what happens is fated. But, that doesn't matter, really, since we'll likely never have access to that information. Thus, acting like we have free will is a reasonable thing to do.

On the other hand, robots will some day destroy us. But, that's a story for another day.

Why does it have to be exclusively one or the other?

People seem to run on automatic an awful lot of the time. My guess is that we spend very little time particularly conscious. But I do think that we have some measure of free will; we're not exclusively robotic.

both

Both, depends on what you are talking about. Sex in programmed. Some mental illnesses are programmed. It's not nature vs nurture, but nature with nurture. So, none of the above.

Both, as I understand it.

People have free will. This is a planet of free will.

> We have free will. Some people think every decision
> we make is based in some part on previous experiences,
> and that our decisions would be different if our
> experiences were different. They think that means
> we really have no free will. I call hooey.

Peepole hafv frE will butt R INfluenced bi instincts and invironment

Certain amount (it depends on a person), but we can't always exercize it.

I haven't received my ray gun.

No way' not one person in this whole world has any free will and we are
controlled like robots and we are like a puppet on a string

Evangelicals > Baptists > Charismatics Churches of God and Community Churches they
rule and reign over all of us and they will try and run this world their way

And it is only their way of running and controlling people like we are their puppets
on a string
The right wing and left wing religious fanatics seems they own our lives and they are
the gods and jesus of this society

Even the Republicans like George Bush they seem to think with all
the power of office they are given
They just want to freely use and abuse their power of office and push other
people and push us all into a corner

And Bush that bastard he wants to keep on sending more American troops to Iraq
even thou the Democrats are opposing this idea of getting more Americans
killed in action

Yes send more body bags to Iraq millions more and millions more this is
the George Bush war and he has nothing to lose but his dam brains

Look at all the lives being lost in Iraq it is civil war with American troops caught in
the middle of this and it sucks to hell with Bush bastard

Some of both. Try making your heart stop beating.

lol - you make me happy

p.s. I said 6-8 week.... a week ago. So, you still have 5-7 weeks left.
p.p.s What's your address anyway?

They have free will

Dammit. I wanted it rushed to me. What is wrong with you? The future of society, as we know it, depends on this.

I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. People have free will to make many choices, although those are often conditioned or influenced, if not controlled, by instinct and environment. I read an article recently saying that free will may just be a delusion and that every choice is a result of biological predisposition, but I don't think it's convincing. I think part of our biological make-up includes the ability to make choices. They may be limited choices, but they're still choices.

Free will baby, free will...

This is an incredibly complicated question. Biologically, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that free will and consciousness are both an illusion. I don't think that the evidence to the contrary is quite as strong. Obviously this flies in the face of what we want to believe about ourselves. This is a currently expanding area of psychology, biology and philosophy so I don't think all of the best evidence is in yet - give it 50 years and we should know more.

Thinking about consciousness makes my brain hurt.

We have the ability to make free decisions within the constraints of our programming.

According to the Bible, God has predestined and foreordained all that happens. There are two Christian schools of thought here, and neither of them is antibiblical. If human free will is overemphasized, Christianity turns into legalism, and it does not properly reflect God's sovereignty. If God's responsibility is overemphasized and predestination is seen as supreme, Christianity turns into fatalism, and people feel that whatever they do or whatever happens it must be God's will. I feel that God does reign supreme, and that humans are given a measure of freedom within the construct of God's will for their lives, so long as that measure stays within God's will for their lives. I do feel that we as people have a good deal of responsibility for the occurrences in our daily lives, and must strive to do what's right and good in all things, and I freely acknowledge that it's a struggle sometimes to do that. One of my favorite passages from the Bible is Micah 6:8: "He hath showed thee, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God."

Where is the option for 'a mixture of both'?

Free will.

> Some of both. Try making your heart stop beating.

Now how on earth do you make your heart stop beating??
I have nine or 20 lives like a cat

> According to the Bible, God has predestined and foreordained all that
> happens. There are two Christian schools of thought here, and neither
> of them is antibiblical. If human free will is overemphasized, Christianity
> turns into legalism, and it does not properly reflect God's sovereignty.
> If God's responsibility is overemphasized and predestination is seen
> as supreme, Christianity turns into fatalism, and people feel that
> whatever they do or whatever happens it must be God's will. I feel
> that God does reign supreme, and that humans are given a measure of
> freedom within the construct of God's will for their lives, so long
> as that measure stays within God's will for their lives. I do feel
> that we as people have a good deal of responsibility for the occurrences
> in our daily lives, and must strive to do what's right and good in
> all things, and I freely acknowledge that it's a struggle sometimes
> to do that. One of my favorite passages from the Bible is Micah 6:8:
> "He hath showed thee, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD
> require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly
> with thy God."


I am a Christian as well and I see that you also sound like a Christian as well and you said
here that Christianity turns into legalism
and yes we are held accountable for our own lives and does this mean that other Christians

Have a God given right to control other people like human robots and put us all on
a leash?
I mean that some people really do get carried away with this like the Community and Baptist
churches they go around saying we are all going to hell and blah blah

And some people in this world like the atheist have somebody's elses propaganda forced
upon them and rammed down their throat
and this is not the will of God to force what we believe in on other people and telling so and so
they are going to hell

See, the conundrum is this...We were programmed like robots by our upbringing andd genetics then given free will. UG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot think of any situation where you are not faced with always 2 choices.

Although I did have a bad dream last night (I've been up since 3:30 thank you very much) and in the dream I was being chased by murderous thugs. They knew what I had just found out moments before, my dad knew a guy who had stolen 6 million dollars and the murderous thugs were out to find me for the money. My first instinct was to run, find the money and disappear, but I just knew the FBI would be looking for me too. I than thought, leave without the money and run, but I would never be safe. Find the money, turn it over to one or the other, but again, my life of safe and security had ended as I knew it. I am truly perplexed at having any free will in this hypothetical (although very real in my dream) situation.

Is that your best robot voice?

Those are the kinds of dreams that would be fun to discover you are only dreaming. Screw this FBI and thug thing, I'm starting a food fight...

I was planning on making cookies, I'm not throwing any of those, although the flour and sugar can fly.

Usually when I know I'm in my dream, that's the first thing I think, is to start a food fight. No consequences! Yippie!

Both. People have free will but choose to be controlled by their environment.

People have a free will; it's just that most people seem to forget that when they become adults. Check your brain at the door and blame society, government or big business for anything that isn't right in your life.

Which ones among us have chosen the red pill instead of the blue one?

People have a free will... anyone doubting that should spend the day with my daughter. I didn't know that robots had instincts or were aware of their environment.

> although the flour
> and sugar can fly.

Don't forget the eggs!! If you make a sticky-enough mess, then the crooks will get stuck and they can't chase you. Or they'll slip on the eggs and crack (pun intended) their heads.

both

Maybe that 'crack' will let me sleep tonight.

I can't agree with anything that states people are "programmed like robots". Free will definitely exists. I like to think more along the lines of "nature vs. nurture". Before having my own children, I would have argued that nurture is more important. After having children, I would have to say it's about 50/50. Children come with their OWN personalities very early on.

If people are getting carried away with not just leading but actually demanding compliance from others, then that's very unchristian. My sister belonged to the International Church of Christ (formerly the Boston Church of Christ) which was cultic in its demands on its members, creating a very works-based view of salvation. The church members labored in constant fear that their salvation would be lost if they did not bring in enough converts, donations, etc. It is never the will of God to force religion down peoples' throats. Rather, it is our responsibility to sew the seed. SEW the seed. Share the word, not scream it. Show our lives as examples of His love. The harvest of the faithful is the Lord's - if we say we can take any credit for bringing people to Christ we are deluded.

Ahh the big question. I've always been extremely interested and curious about this, because there's no way to really know. I believe we all have and make choices, I just don't know if we can actually choose any other choice than the one we do, or if it's predestined that we choose the way we do.

Yes indeed we have a responsibility to sew the seed and the seed needs to be watered
as I have learned before
or it will not grow
Some Christians shout" and scream" at the top of their lungs till they are blue in the
face
And jump up and down waving their arms like some bird brain idiot I cannot stand it
and they are self righteous hypocrites
who love to judge other people this could include our next door neighbors judging them
all because some of them never attend church and some of our neighbors do not
believe in Jesus and God

The bible says to love our neighbors as ourselves
then why on earth are some Christians so busy and bothered by their neighbors sins and what they
do in their own home?

We cannot rush over to our neighbors and beat them up with the bible all because of who
they are and what they do no
We are to love our neighbors and neighbors are those in our Churches as well standing next to
us during the service

I believe in the love Jesus had for all humans for all of us
and none of us are left out of the will of God no

I am Episcopal Anglican and I believe in the Father , Son and Holy Spirit
Jesus is in my life

Amen!

yupper

Where's the option for Predestiny.

Anyhow, I believe that free-will, predestiny, and epiphenomalism are all simultaneous faces of God creating within this instance.
To the extent that our consciousness resides in ego or universal consciousness, it appears to be either free-will or predestiny.

If you believed time to be linear, and believed god creates all this on the fly, you could then ask if the train of thought of God was of itself epiphenomenal, however I also believe that god creats all of history and the future in this instant too.

Yes.

Hi LindaH,*welcome* welcome to SC!

Thanks

BTW Nice avatar!

How many decisions do YOU make..

I had a profound spiritual experience which psychologists might liken to 'disassociation'. Either way, the lesson was the same. My observational consciousness had floated above my intellectual consciousness, and from that perspective I could see that my intellectual decisions were just as epiphenomenalistc as a computer. From that higher vantage point I could see that every iota of the universe was alive with a meta-flow which kept everything running, but that, just as my scriptures suggested, the ego which imagined itself to be controlling things was merely along for the ride.

Until that time I was obsessed with finding the meaning of life. After that, I realized that the answer I sought was outside the domain of the mind which pursued such an answer.

I found tht in large part, the purpose of meditaton was to discover that consciousness and thought are not the same thing. Typically our consciousness occupies thought, but it is not restricted to thought. It is our consciousness which distinguishes us from computers, and not the complexity of thought or perceptual apparatus.

I'm quite certain that thought and consciousness are different... I think people are thinking all the time... "I want to eat that donut"... "I'm going to eat that donut"... "Mmmm, donut"... whether they're acting consciously or not...

> This is a currently expanding area of psychology, biology and philosophy so I don't think all
> of the best evidence is in yet - give it 50 years and we should know more.

I know, but I can't wait 50 years! Will you let me know when you get there?

> Thinking about consciousness makes my brain hurt.

That's likely good

Her name is Yoshimi / she's a black belt in karate
working for the city / she has to discipline her body

'Cause she knows that / it's demanding
to defeat those evil machines / I know she can beat them

Oh Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots eat me
Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots defeat me

Those evil-natured robots / they're programmed to destroy us
she's gotta be strong to fight them / so she's taking lots of vitamins

'Cause she knows that / it'd be tragic
if those evil robots win / I know she can beat them

Oh Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots defeat me
Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots eat me

Yoshimi

'Cause she knows that / it'd be tragic
if those evil robots win / I know she can beat them

Oh Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots defeat me
Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots defeat me

Oh Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots eat me
Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots eat me

Yoshimi

(Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots -- The Flaming Lips)

> |> Thinking about consciousness makes my brain hurt.
>
> That's likely good

It's all so confusing - if I can consider the possibility that I am not conscious, does that count as evidence that I actually am?

Personally, I'm tempted to think that we are conscious, but what we are currently lacking is a way of understanding logically why that is the case - but I want to be conscious, so obviously I'm biased! But if we don't base what we believe to be true on the available evidence, then where does that leave other areas of science? Where does that leave my refutation of religion and God?

Now my head hurts again. I'd love to look into this properly - I had a few lectures on it during my last degree, and it was really interesting. Maybe I'll get to touch on it while I'm studying medicine, but I doubt it's the kind of thing they expect doctors to know about!

Consciousness lies beyond the domain of thought, and science lies within it. If you want an aetheist understanding of it, philosphy is about the best you'll find, and I don't any of that actually explains it either.

I suppose a study of consciousness is not beyond science though, after all, consciousness can observe consciousness. It only falls apart when science insists on tangible matter to explain everything.

> Consciousness lies beyond the domain of thought, and science lies
> within it.

I don't think that anything exists outside of the realm of science. Outside of our ability to compose scientific theories and experiments, yes, but not beyond science itself.

> I suppose a study of consciousness is not beyond science though, after
> all, consciousness can observe consciousness. It only falls apart
> when science insists on tangible matter to explain everything.

You mean when science insists on proof rather than a vague woolly feeling that something is so?

I have a vague woolly feeling that I am conscious, and that's fine as long as I want to say that I believe I am conscious, but it doesn't prove that I am - and it certainly can't prove to other people that I am. I cannot state consciousness as fact without tangible evidence - but if consciousness is fact, then evidence will exist to support that.

I hope you aren't one of those loons who will decide that you aren't conscious just because consciousness can't be measured or even implicitly proven to exist except as personal experience.

I could write a computer program which claims to be conscious of your typing to it just as Joey claims to be concious of your stealing his cocktail napkins. No scientific equipment will ever prove either of them are conscious, however. Their are still looneys convinced that animals don't feel, and alas, there's no proof that they're wrong either. Brain cell response and biochemical ar apparent emotional system feedback is no evidence of actual pain experience.

What we currently call science has some huge limitations. For instance it presupposes cause & effect, and linear sequence of time.

For that matter, there's no proving anything with statistics except as a statement of what has existed within the immediate context. It may seem that gravity will be around tomorrow, but 15 billion years of gravity may turn out to have been merely a brief chaotic quirky anomaly within the scope of eternity.

Look at how crazy our understanding of nature was 400 years ago. You could say that we know most of it now, and that the standards of proof have been nearly perfected, but I expect 400 years from now our understanding will look as backwards as bleeding the sick does to us. We hve no means of measuring the relative accuracy of our paradigm of choice, say compared to using wolves as omens of war outcomes.

Look at when drugs are 30% effective, compared to placebos being 25% effective. It suggests two things (neither mutually exclusive), either that statistical evidence is more a hint than an actual reflection of things, or that we really should look more into the genuine healing power of suggestive thought.

People have free will but each decision has a preset future

Do those preset futures include their next decisions?

Depends on the person. Some people are very easily influenced by their surroundings and others to such a degree that they find no reason or want to have an original thought.

to me the preset future is situational decisions still are to made but that will bring about a different preset situation and you can then make another decision; just an opinion, who am i too say?

Well I don't agree with any of the given options... but the most relative to my belief would be that we are "like robots"... Everything is deterministic.. Every decision is made due to higher causing.. free will is superstitious and not logical.. for free will to exist, there must be a period of uncertainty with potential which would eliminate higher causing... but do you really believe that something can happen due to a weaker causing... not very logical. The illusion of free will is. we don't know what we must choose which makes the possibilities seem endless... when they are most limited..