Was it a 'botched joke' or a 'slip of the tongue'

Why does it have to be one or the other? I think both are true, he was making a joke about the troops being stupid.

I think he meant one thing but used the wrong words to express it.

I really doubt that Kerry--a former soldier--was suggesting that US soldiers are stupid. It seems more likely that he was talking about the people running the war--Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney--than about the soldiers. Whether he was joking or speaking metaphorically I don't know, though.

It was a mistake and I slip of the tongue and we are all innocent until proven guilty in a Court of Law and it is free speech

Sounds more like one of those "Head of state seeking arms". I am sure the "...you get stuck in Iraq" is a reference to Bush being stuck there.

He was talking about Bush. You know how I know? Cause I heard the WHOLE speech. once you see the line in context, as opposed to just the line itself as Fox and the So-Called Liberal media show it to you, you'll get it.

> Why does it have to be one or the other? I think
> both are true, he was making a joke about the
> troops being stupid.

Except he didn't. That is a lie told by the Bush Administration. Unless of coruse, they themselves are so stupid they don't eve know they're being mocked, which is I admit highly possible.

Since Bush isn't in Iraq, he clearly wasn't referring to Bush in that part of the statement. I suppose he could have been referring to Bush in the part where he talked about being smart and doing well, but that seems rather unlikely.

I didn't hear the whole speech. Would that have made a difference? I don't know.

I think John Kerry is an idiot...
But...what do I know..right?

So maybe he was saying the troops are stupid...Beats me...I don't feel that way...But..eh...

When faced with a political question, look for the hoof beats..Which in reality are not from a horse at all..but from a man..who strongly resembles one...

> Since Bush isn't in Iraq, he clearly wasn't referring
> to Bush in that part of the statement.

But he was. You are either a liar or a fool. You know how I know? I SAW THE WHOLE SPEECH! I know the context. You can probalby find the WHOLE THING on YoUTube. Watch it, so when we continue this conversation, you won't look like an idiot.

> I suppose
> he could have been referring to Bush in the part
> where he talked about being smart and doing well,
> but that seems rather unlikely.

See the clip, or repeat the Right Wing lie. The choice is yours.

> I think John Kerry is an idiot...
> But...what do I know..right?
>
> So maybe he was saying the troops are stupid...Beats
> me...I don't feel that way...But..eh...
>
> When faced with a political question, look for
> the hoof beats..Which in reality are not from
> a horse at all..but from a man..who strongly resembles
> one...

No, he didn't. That joke, was one in a SERIES of jokes about Bush, and if the media had done their due dilligence and played the whole thing, people like you wouldn't be repeting something so patently false that it sends my blood pressure rising everytime I ehar some yahoo blathering it. Let me put it to you this way; if you really belive Kerry was making fun of the troops, I have a bridge I'd like to sell ya.

> I didn't hear the whole speech. Would that have
> made a difference?

YES! Facts without context are meaningless, I've been saying this for 3 fudging years, but some of the things I've seen on this survey's comments lead to me to beleive that no one has been paying attention.

What is "Oh brother who art thou" mean?

I don't know enough about the situation.

It doesn't really matter. Kerry is a war veteran as am I. It was how he reacted to his folly that irked us war veterans so. Whither he meant what he said or meant what was proffered later, both were inappropriate, disrespectful and in poor taste. For the record, I felt that he meant what he said the first time. The video shows him not stutter or seem sheepish and the sentiment was common of the Officers, of which he was one, during his era of U.S. Naval Reserve service.

given that Kerry himself went to college, then to Vietnam, I'd say botched... but a pretty bad botch and he deserves to be roasted for it... he's a loser anyway, I'm glad to get him off the stage

I don`t know for sure, but it was probably a botched joke.

I think it's both.

When I first saw the quote in the explanation, I assumed Kerry was having another pop at Bush. When I re-read it, I noticed that it could be construed as an attack on the US military and an implication that the men and women serving in Iraq only have themselves to blame because they clearly didn't pay enough attention in school. It seemed odd to me that any politician from any party would say something so dangerously insensitive this close to an election, so it's no surprise at all that this quote has been isolated and shown out of its original context hundreds of times already.

Having researched further, I have found out what he was supposed to say

"Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."

He fluffed his lines. Pure and simple. However, am I the only one who sees the irony in Kerry calling Bush stupid when he can't even read from his cue cards properly?

> You are either a liar or a fool.

We'd managed to go all of three exchanges recently without name calling. You stuck to the argument. I was proud of you.

It was neither he has been doing this the 70's. He is like most politicians there that think that the general public is so stupid that they cannot make a decision on their own.

He said exactly what he meant to say.

I made the "other" in "Brother" bold... meaning, that's the 'other' option.

> YES! Facts without context are meaningless, I've been saying this
> for 3 fudging years, but some of the things I've seen on this survey's
> comments lead to me to believe that no one has been paying attention.

I find many times people half quote things or completely misinterpret (to their own ends) things people say. It's a form of lying really isn't it? That being said, the people that do it rely on other people passing it on out of context. Then try and take something back once it's "out there".

Funny, in reading about it before, I never interpreted it as a comment on the education level of US troops. I thought the problem was the "stuck" part. You know, like they were sent there for a spa day but now they're stuck there. I understand a little better the White House response now.

What I think is really abhorrent is the way that the government uses "respect for the troops in Iraq" as a political device.

> But he was. You are either a liar or a fool.
> You know how I know? I SAW THE WHOLE SPEECH!

I don't think the WHOLE SPEECH says a word about whether dab is a liar or a fool.

And what did he mean to say?

"You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. And if you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

But what did he mean by that, exactly?

He used a very bad analogy. I believe he had a speech written before hand (maybe not even by him)...and I believe it is usually read before it being public. Someone should have caught it...but no one did. I guess, in private, no one was REALLY listening!

Freely translated: "Somebody please stop me before I self destruct."

All I know is what he said.

It sounds to me like he was simply suggesting that people who put a lot of effort into their education, don't get "stuck in Iraq". I'm not sure who is "stuck in Iraq", but I suspect that some of the class of people who are "stuck in Iraq" are not US troops.

I also think it is very possible to be something other than "uneducated" without actually working hard and putting a lot of effort into one's education. I never did, and I don't consider myself to be "uneducated". I know quite a few people who breezed through years of university without doing a lot of work, basically partied and had a good time. They are some of the most educated people I know. I also know someone who is quite brilliant and well educated in spite of the fact that he never completed anything beyond grade seven.

My impression of the statement is that he is presenting two scenarios; one has a positive outcome and the other negative. I wouldn't try to read anything more into it than that.

> It was a mistake and I slip of the tongue and
> we are all innocent until proven guilty in a Court
> of Law and it is free speech

Don't you mean "We are all innocent until tried by the press and proven guilty in the court of public opinion"?

Oh Ok

It wasn't an insult it was a question. Every single person who isn't a Bush spinmeister that saw the FULL speech knew it was a jab at Bush. Thus far the only people who've said it was a jab at the troops are Republican ahcks, and people who either didn't see or never even heard about the rest of the speech.

> When I first saw the quote in the explanation,
> I assumed Kerry was having another pop at Bush.
> When I re-read it, I noticed that it could be
> construed as an attack on the US military and
> an implication that the men and women serving
> in Iraq only have themselves to blame because
> they clearly didn't pay enough attention in school.
> It seemed odd to me that any politician from any
> party would say something so dangerously insensitive
> this close to an election, so it's no surprise
> at all that this quote has been isolated and shown
> out of its original context hundreds of times
> already.
>
> Having researched further, I have found out what
> he was supposed to say
>
> "Do you know where you end up if you don't study,
> if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually
> lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in
> Iraq. Just ask President Bush."
>
> He fluffed his lines. Pure and simple. However,
> am I the only one who sees the irony in Kerry
> calling Bush stupid when he can't even read from
> his cue cards properly?

Dude, have you ever tried to read a joke that someone else wrote for you? Not as easy as it sounds, let me tell ya.

Oh I wholeheartedly agree. Another thing I often say (I can't take full credit though, I got it from an episode of Babylon 5) is "a half-truth is the worst kind of lie."

See what I mean about the lack of context robbing things of it's meaning? If you were intelletcually curious (read: not lazy) to read the whole exchange I had with Dab, you'd know what I meant. I'm not going to say you were lying, because I've read enough of your posts over the years to figure that you wouldn't do something like that.

I didn't say that's what I thought...In fact I honestly don't think he did.
The point I'm making is I could care less what he meant because he's an idiot in my opinion

> |> It was a mistake and I slip of the tongue and
> |> we are all innocent until proven guilty in a Court
> |> of Law and it is free speech
>
> Don't you mean "We are all innocent until tried by the press and proven
> guilty in the court of public opinion"?
>

Good one'

Congratulations, only a single exchange to insult me!

Why exactly do you think he's an idiot? Because he messed up a joke? By that definition, I guess every comedian in the world is retarded, because even the best ones mess up from time to time.

I write my own presentations, actually. I don't need a writer to tell me what to say.

If a politician can't do jokes properly, jokes shouldn't be in their speeches. Gordon Brown may be dour, but at least he's honest enough with who he is to leave out the wisecracks.

Well, I believe it was written before hand and maybe he explained what his interpretation of the term meant to his advisors, so they knew in what context he meant when saying it. No one else did.

I , also, believe that to be educated...you do not have to plunge into years of academia.

I don't see you mocking Bush for torturing the English language. You don't think Bush writes HIS own material do you? Hell, he ripped off his latest campaign slogan from Nancy Reagen!

You don't see me mocking Bush now because this isn't a survey about Bush. I happen to own a copy of this book. It was a stocking filler from my partner got me for Christmas a few years ago. I think my original comment was both fair and balanced under the circumstances. Given your volatile disposition, I can understand you jumping down the throats of those who took what he said out of context. But I'm rather baffled by your apparent desire to pick another fight with me.

That's funny, because you said originally that you knew what he meant too.

When Bush stood in front of a crowd in Saginow, Michigan during his 2000 presidential election campaign and said "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." what do you think he meant? Because, it's been six years and I still haven't got a bloody clue!

Coincidentally, I now have mentioned Bush in my reply to FordGuy as it was appropriate to our exchange.

No, he was talking about the lunatics in the White House. He just worded it badly as he stated later.

Nevertheless, it's not the thinking part of the nation that joins the military in my opinion.

No...I've thought he was an idiot for awhile..years..
Not because he messed up a joke..

> No, he was talking about the lunatics in the White
> House. He just worded it badly as he stated later.
>
> Nevertheless, it's not the thinking part of the
> nation that joins the military in my opinion.

Especially since recruiting standards were lowered so that high school drop outs and people with memberships in racist groups could sign up. I'm sure the people currently in just loved (sarcasm) that. A unit is only as strong as it's weakest member, and now we're going to have units in Iraq made up of people who think Jessica Simpson captures the zeitgeist of our culture. Or they would if they knew how to spell zeitgeist. I think the U.S. death toll in Iraq due to accidents or friendly fire is about to skyrocket.

I think the guy is a jerk

He meant it's ok to swim.

> I think the guy is a jerk

Maybe he is, but he still wasn't insulting the troops.

like he could have done the job any better

Actually yes he could. Kerry knows an unwinnable war when he sees one because he fought in one.

I think the news seen that and ran with it

I removed your avatar... too offensive (the swear)

I am curious as to how much you yourself have traveled the world. Are you speaking from knowledge you have obtained from first hand experience or are you like many other young spoiled Americans. Speaking out of their butts because they have no clue of the reality of how good we have it here in this country and how bad the rest of the world(most of it) really is. We have a president that is working his best and giving his all. You need to understand that nothing happens under heaven that wasn't going to happen anyways. This war would have come, and whoever was in leadership would have had to deal with it. You need to look at the world from a different perspective. We have an amazing privilege to live in this country. You have no idea how blessed you are. And yet in history every great country that rose in blessing and then turned its back on God and morals and service and stewardship and ministry to those less fortunate and became self centered perished and fell. It is important to protect this country. And look out for others as well. In moments all we have could be taken away from us. I would suggest traveling a little while you can and seeing things first hand before you stand so firm in your beliefs. I have been amazed with all I have learned. I know you may not even own a bible but I would also suggest you read Romans 13:1-6 and Proverbs 1:7. I'm at least glad the leader we have now gets on his knees every morning to ask the ultimate authority what he should do. Whether or not he is clearly understanding direction is only something we will know in end times. Also read Revelations. You will find that this kind of stuff will only continue to happen. That things will only get worse. and when they get better the odds are that either its only temporary..a few seconds to breath before something worse comes. Or many will have been raptured and the time of the Anti christ will have come. "Satan's wonders are often impressive, but always deceptive." "When Satan is at his worst, God is either doing or about to do his best." I know this is all a little hard for you to grasp because you do not believe in God, but when you do, the big picture makes better sense. And as to a few other comments you have made lately. As a christian I follow God and his word. I listen for his spirit which lives in me to help guide me(others would call it similar to a conscience..but it is different). I don't follow just anyone. A lot of who I chose to vote for comes out of my beliefs and prayer. Today is election day and I am going to vote. I have spent time educating myself on all that I will be voting on and I am secure that I will be voting for the people God has lead me to vote for. But I am sure of one thing....Those put in office at the end of the counts are put there by a higher power then those that voted. And he will guide those to vote so his turn out happens. Sometimes for a bigger purpose he may need a republican leader, sometimes he may need a democratic leader. Meanwhile..personally I am really getting sick of this verbal political civil war we all have on our soil.

Oh man - he's going to go ballistic. Hold on, folks. Good post btw.

God didn't pick Bush. Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia, Katherine Harris, and Ken Blackwell did. Of course, there isn't a God anyway so this is a silly argument. Working his best and giving his all? You have got to be kidding. We have a President who openly admitted more than once to living in a bubble, who only hears and see what he wants, facts be damned becuase he's "the decider." he believe he was handpicked by God. So has every single dictator in recorded history (except for Stalin, but geez, one Atheist compared to hundred of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish tyrants? I think we all know how that argument is going to go).

And yet you still haven't admitted to what we all know. That you too live in a bubble...It's ok, most Americans do. And Yes we may not understand it but even the most horrible of people and situations have a purpose and a reason behind them. Go to the ocean or any beach. Pick up a single grain of sand and compare it to all the sand on all the shores on all the beaches and that will still only give you a small clue of the time of your life compared to eternity. Things seem huge to us because we live in them now. But one day the whole picture will come together and we will see how absolutely beautiful it all HAS become and what it all was for. Good always comes out of the bad. But at least when that day comes I won't have regrets for not believing. My best friend is Athiest we have been BF since I was 5. I know where she stands...and each athiest believes different, but I also see how hopeless you guys are when it comes to the future, you live so much for now. the truth though is we are all human. We are all flawed, And I can guarantee that many will come down on any leader in office.There is always something in everyone that you are not going to like.No one will ever do it right. And why don't you ask those troops serving...those with masters degrees and doctorates in fields you could only dream of being able to understand. those who are serving their country and helping others. Ask them what they think of this war.. I hear of very few soldiers that don't agree with the cause. I am not saying that a president or leader who is completely out of his mind should not be dealt with, but we don't have that problem..k, I have said my peace...but really..Go travel

And for the fun of it here is a joke...

Remember this when you vote this Tuesday November 7.
>
> While walking down the street one day a US senator is
> tragically hit by a truck and dies.
>
> His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the
> entrance.
>
> "Welcome to heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in,
> it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around
> these parts, you see, so we're not sure what to do with you."
>
> "No problem, just let me in," says the man.
>
> "Well, I'd like to, but I have orders from higher up. What
> we'll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then
> you can choose where to spend eternity."
>
> "Really, I'vemade up my mind. I want to be in heaven,"
> says the senator.
>
> "I'm sorry, but we have our rules"
>
> And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he
> goes down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds
> himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a
> clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other
> politicians who had worked with him.
>
> Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to
> greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they
> had while getting rich at the expense of the people.
>
> They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster,
> caviar and champagne.
>
> Also present is the devil, who really is a very friend ly
> guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having
> such a good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.
>
> Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the
> elevator rises...
>
> The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven
> where St. Peter is waiting for him
>
> "Now it's time to visit heaven."
>
> So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of
> contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp
> and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes
> it, te 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.
>
> "Well, then, you've spent a day in hell and another in
> heaven. Now choose your eternity."
>
> The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: "Well,
> I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been
> delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell."
>
> So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down,
> down, down to hell.
>
> Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the middle
> of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.
>
> He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the
> trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.
>
> The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his
> shoulder.
>
> "I don't understand," stammers the senator. "Yesterday I was
> here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate
> lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time.
> Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look
> miserable. What happened?"
>
> The devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we
> were campaigning...... Today you voted."

"I hear of very few soldiers that don't agree with the cause."

All 4 major military magazines have called for Rumsfeld' resignation. Veterans For Peace and IAVA are just two of the anti-war organizations started by veterans. You don't hear about them because you live in a fantasy land where people who say they're Christians are automatically turstworthy and Fox News is reliable. Talk me again when you grow up and stop waiting for your imaginary friend to fix everything.

Veterans being the key word there. Ask those who are there now. And how mature of a person are you when you are telling people to grow up? My five year talks to people like that.

> Veterans being the key word there. Ask those who
> are there now.

OK, tell me this. How long after you leave Iraq do you lose the right to tell people what you saw there? Or do you just think they have no value beucase they aren't still there? Tell Tammy Duckworth, Paul Hackett, and Paul Reichoff that their opinion doesn't matter.

john kerry is a dick

> john kerry is a dick

How so? Because you know, he was making a joke about Bush, not about the troops. And he was absolutely right too.

well maybe so but he should have chosen his words better

All he did was leave out the word "us." So why the national scandal? And if Kerry's thing is fair game, does that mean we can go back to asking what the hell Bush was talking about when he said "Too many OBGYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country?" or when he said about Osama Bin Laden "I just don't spend that much time on him?"

ok then

However bad, it was a joke. If you watched a video and heard how he said it, you'd know he wasn't seriously dissing the troops.

Kerry is an a anyhow. I cannot belive that he would make fun of the men and women that keep his nasty a alive. He served our country...maybe not in Iraq but he served. Well, he at least showed up and got a few boo boos