How do you feel about this proposed, flag-related United States Constitution amendment?

I thought this was already a law in the US. Shows what I know.

A political stunt by Republicans in an election year. Other - Why bother with something like this? Why bring it up again? I remember dimly stuff about flag-burning way back in the Vietnam war time. There are more important things to worry about...

My father is retired military and takes the meaning of the flag very serous. For him it represents freedom as well as those who died for our freedom. I guess my father's love for what it represents has rubbed off on me. Desecrating the flag is like stomping on the graves of those who fought for this country and saying f*uck this country. If you feel the need to desecrate the United States flag then move to Iraq!

> I thought this was already a law in the US. Shows
> what I know.

so did I

It's an awful idea. It's just wrong.

I agree with you.

The idea sounds pretty retarded. First off it goes against the very idea of free speech. Secondly, they could've at least made laws, federal, state, and local-- instead of actually making it into an amendment. Seriously, wouldn't a simple law against it be enough.

My other bother with flag burners is that in the event these morons set themselves on fire, they'll wind up in the hospital raising medical prices for the rest of us.

And no, I don't agree that its a Republican stunt for an election year. I think its a stunt by both parties, so as to look busy, so that people would vote in the first place. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me.

yeah, better yet they set themselves on fire (hopefully aren't insured though my insurance) while they're at it. They won't be missed.

Symbol of freedom, this would be hypocritical. I do believe in a manner the flag is sacred, not in a religious way and I would hope that when some one does desecrate the flag they do it to make a statement regarding what it represents- whatever that might be. I don't want it ratified.

You know that may be one of the first times we completely agreed with each other?

The 4 of you who checked "The flag is a symbol of freedom, so this amendment is wrong.” is contradicting your self’s with that statement. If the flag is a symbol of freedom then isn't desecrating it saying, “the hell with freedom!"? That makes no damn sense.

I think it's a bad idea. I also think "desecration" is way too vague a word and too open to interpretation.

Insurance? Let them burn and mail them to the Middle East somewhere.

No, you have it backwards. If it symbolized freedom then I should have the freedom to express myself, including burning the flag.

I think anyone should have a right to do anything. I don't think it's wrong to do it, but it's not a very nice thing. At first I thought what's the big deal anyway, but then I imagined someone burning Canadian flag and it wouldn't make me too happy.

lol

naw, not worth the postage

Who said freedom is doing what ever you want when ever you want. If that is what freedom is then ever law on the books is depriving us of our freedoms.
Freedom is not with out a price. We have the freedoms we have because of the blood and lives of our fellow Americans who fought and died. As I said before to desecrate the flag is no different than to stomp the graves of those that gave you your freedoms. It’s no different than saying the hell with freedom and fudge the US. Anyone who has the desire to have the freedom to desecrate the flag should give up their citizenship and move to some other county. For those who do desecrate the flag they should be kicked out and sent to some hell whole country to get a real taste of what it’s like to have no freedoms.

I bet someone in the Middle East would pay the postage to get an American body to torture. That was just mean!

I disagree. And I disagree. And since I don't believe in an amendment to the constitution preventing people from expressing themselves then I will go to the post office on Monday and apply for my passport.

The word "desecration" bothers me, because it implies the flag is sacred. These are religious terms.

Also, could someone explain to these bozos that flag burnings state side are rare, and that the majority take palce overseas where this law can't be enforced?

> My father is retired military and takes the meaning
> of the flag very serous. For him it represents
> freedom as well as those who died for our freedom.
> I guess my father's love for what it represents
> has rubbed off on me. Desecrating the flag is
> like stomping on the graves of those who fought
> for this country and saying f*uck this country.
> If you feel the need to desecrate the United
> States flag then move to Iraq!

Oh sapre me that move to Iraq crap! I am SO fudging sick of that neo-nazi faux-patriotic nonsense. Never forget that alledged flag burning were part of Hitler's justification for invading Poland. Remember that, next time you want to support an unconstiutional law reminscent of the 3rd Riech. I'm sure your father would LOVE for that to happen right?

> The 4 of you who checked "The flag is a symbol
> of freedom, so this amendment is wrong.” is contradicting
> your self’s with that statement. If the flag is
> a symbol of freedom then isn't desecrating it
> saying, “the hell with freedom!"? That makes
> no damn sense.


Reality check. Telling people they can't do what they pelase with pieces of cloth they probably purchased themselves is Fascistic thinking. I will never understand you jingoist types. Whya re the copuntry's symbols more improtant to you than what those symbols stand for? You want to protect the flag yet you do nothing when the President metaphorically urinates all over the Constituion? Fudging hypocrits.

> Who said freedom is doing what ever you want when
> ever you want. If that is what freedom is then
> ever law on the books is depriving us of our freedoms.
>
> Freedom is not with out a price. We have the freedoms
> we have because of the blood and lives of our
> fellow Americans who fought and died. As I said
> before to desecrate the flag is no different than
> to stomp the graves of those that gave you your
> freedoms. It’s no different than saying the hell
> with freedom and fudge the US. Anyone who has the
> desire to have the freedom to desecrate the flag
> should give up their citizenship and move to some
> other county. For those who do desecrate the flag
> they should be kicked out and sent to some hell
> whole country to get a real taste of what it’s
> like to have no freedoms.
>

You want a taste of what it's like to ahve no freedoms we should let people like you run the country. Do youe venr ead what you write? You sound like a gosh darn Nazi with all your talk about how improtant the flag is. How about free speech, twit? Does that matter to you at all, or will I be seeing you at the next mandatory book burning?

ok

We're not talking about Hitler dumb ass or race. Hitler had no justification for anything he did, he was just a crazy nut case who hated Jews and it hasn't a damn thing to do with the US flag.

You need to get a grip on your self so you can type. Do you also stutter when you talk? Why would anyone be so stupid as to pay good money for a flag just to burn it? What are you doing to stop Bush from pissing on the constitution, if he even could do that without a congress and senate? If being patriotic and feeling that the flag stands for something makes me a hypocrite then I guess I’m what I am. I’m sure I been called much worse.

There you go stuttering again. You are so full of it you don't even know what you’re talking about. Get back with me when you can talk like a human being and stay on the issue at hand.

> We're not talking about Hitler dumb ass or race.
> Hitler had no justification for anything he did,
> he was just a crazy nut case who hated Jews and
> it hasn't a damn thing to do with the US flag.

Wow. And you don't know history either. What a catch.

The only thing I'm full of is anger. I am jsut sick to death of this "move to whereever if you don't like the flag" crap. Sorry, but that attitude is more Nazi than American. just check your hisotry sometime, you'll see that I'm right. once the flag itself becomes more important than free speech, it's a short jump over to McCarthyism 2 Electric Boogaloo. And I'm not confident this country could survive that kind of thing again. Hell, we barely made it out of the last one.

> Oh sapre me that move to Iraq crap!... Remember
> that, next time you want to support an unconstiutional law reminscent
> of the 3rd Riech. I'm sure your father would LOVE for that to happen
> right?

Damn straight! This crap about anyone who doesn't "follow the leader" is a "traitor" really pisses me off. You're right, it's just nazi propaganda disguised as "patriotism". In Australia, the Prime Minister denied a recent proposal for a law against burning the national flag because he said it went against freedom. Ironic coming from him

I think it bolsters my arguments that the first thing you jump on is not my ideas, or my points, but my typos. I used to debate this Right Wing Brit named Peter over at another board, and every time I hit him with a fact that didn't fit in to his narrow worldview, and there was a typo in the post with the fact, he would jump on that like a pack of dogs on a three legged cat. It was all he had. It was kind of sad to watch really.

> |> Oh sapre me that move to Iraq crap!... Remember
> |> that, next time you want to support an unconstiutional
> law reminscent
> |> of the 3rd Riech. I'm sure your father would
> LOVE for that to happen
> |> right?
>
> Damn straight! This crap about anyone who doesn't
> "follow the leader" is a "traitor" really pisses
> me off. You're right, it's just nazi propaganda
> disguised as "patriotism". In Australia, the Prime
> Minister denied a recent proposal for a law against
> burning the national flag because he said it went
> against freedom. Ironic coming from him

Darn tootin'.

I thought you were a Christian? This sacred flag crap is sheer idolism and Nazi BS.

oh really? Then why don't you explain it to me.

With your kind of thinking we should just rid our self’s of the flag all together. We might as well rid our self of a military too while we're at it. It means nothing anyway.

> I thought you were a Christian? This sacred flag
> crap is sheer idolism and Nazi BS.

And I thought you were a Christian. Maybe you should read up on loving your country and yes your flag doses represent your country.

With the extent of your typos as well as your name calling and vase amount of uncalled for cursing, who could keep their mind on anything. Or for that matter even care what your point is. Your opinion is no grater or lesser than mine it's just an opinion. Yes I feel strongly about *MY* flag but I'm not going to give myself a damn heart attack over it.

Wanderers, I am a Christian. I feel the flag is symbolic of freedom, and honoring those brave men that have given their lives for our freedom. I don't consider the flag as "sacred". To those that have lost loved ones in service to our country, it is but a slap in the face to see someone burn the flag. I ask you, why does one have to burn the flag? If a person is unhappy about something our government is doing, why not just say it, and not burn the flag? I have never lost anyone personally in war, but imagine what it feels for those that have.

The flag represents America, it does not represent Bush and his Nazi like stupidity under the guise of "patriotism".

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
— Theodore Roosevelt, speaking on President Wilson's crackdown on dissent after the U.S. entered WWI

People burn the Aussie flag all the time but more often the American flag and this mostly happens in other countries. Sure that idiot Bush can use this as an excuse to tighten his totalitarian grip but in reality, people right across the world will continue to burn the American flag and there's nothing anyone can do about it. I don't like it when people burn flags for the same reasons you pointed out, but this is democracy and banning flag burning is anything but democracy.

South Park recently featured Jesus Christ defecating on the flag. Isn't blasphemy more hurtful to you or is the flag more important? Why not make laws preventing people from committing blasphemy and make those laws apply to everyone, including atheists? Because this is a democracy, that's why.

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
— Theodore Roosevelt, speaking on President Wilson's crackdown on dissent after the U.S. entered WWI

You make it sound so simple, but Hitler wouldn't have been able to pull off all his invasions without coming up with B>S. justifications for them to sell to the German people. He lied about WMDs and... Oh, wait, wrong bad guy. Hitler staged the bombing of the Reichstag, talked about falg bruning (hint hint), stoked fears of homoseuxals and immigrants (any of this sound familiar)?, among other nonsense excuses that a prostrate media helped him spread. Just watch Frank Capra's Why We Fight for a far better explanation than any I can provide.

Hey, got any more deliberate misrepresentations and flat out lies about what I said? The weekend isn't over yet.

No, but you are going to engage in childish false narratives (i.e the "why don't you leave" nonsense). Where I'm coming from is intellectual. I cannot abide the willfully ignorant, i.e. people who would value a symbol over what the symbol satnds for. I would rather burn the flag than burn the country, but then again I'm not Sean Hannity. Your contention that flag burners are by default traitors is dishonest, disgusting, and a talking point so often used by the Right Wing in America that when you use it one can't help but reach the conclusion that you simply are unwilling (unable?) to think for yourself.

The flag is a symbol of freedom, so this amendment is wrong.

> Who said freedom is doing what ever you want when ever you want.

"free·dom (frē'dəm) pronunciation
n.
1. The condition of being free of restraints."
http://www.answers.com/freedom&r=67

You could also try not to criticize Frost for his spelling when you can't manage basic punctuation.

Nothing personal, but freedom of speech is a good thing, but if you feel that you have to go so far as to burn a flag to express your feeling of disgust on that country, then maybe you should not be in that country. Not liking what the country is doing, like the war we are in, or the politics, or anything you can think of is fine. you dont have to like certain things that the government does. But, I say, enough with the flag burning, it is not a way of expressing ones self of freedom of speech. keep the flag flying.

Our flag symbolizes our free nation. No one should have the right to squash that symbolism. It deserves only respect and honor.

the flag is a symbol that should be used for freedom of expression. this is a political stunt!!!! it makes me so angry.

that is ridiculous, it is what this country is all about to have freedom of expression and speech....... and it is an extreme expression against the actions of our government to burn the flag. it should be allowable because it is a symbol of our country/government. there is nothing wrong with the expression or disagreement, IT IS what our country is ALL about!!! to say that those people should leave this country is completely UN-AMERICAN!

While I may not agree with someone desecrating the flag, I defend their right to do it. That's what freedom of speech means.

> The flag represents America, it does not represent
> Bush and his Nazi like stupidity under the guise

That is exactly my point!

>To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

Who said anything about not having the right to criticize Bush or the government? I didn't say anything about Bush I am talking about the flag and what it represents.

The flag symbolizes freedom, but that's a symbol, a representation; it's like a picture. Limiting actual freedom, weakening the most fundamental guarantee of that freedom, the First Amendment, in order to protect the symbol of it, is like someone who's so devoted to his family that he keeps a big framed picture of his children, and when his house burns down, he saves the picture before he saves the actual children.
And if you want symbolism, personally I was impressed by the symbolism of the Supreme Court decision that considered flag-burning as protected under the First Amendment; we're such a free country that you can even burn our flag. THAT was honoring what the flag stands for; this anti-flag-burning amendment is idolizing the symbol and forgetting what it stands for.

I know very well who Hitler was. I know he was a very intelligent man who knew how to make people listen and I know he was sick and twisted.
You’re doing a lot of talking but you're not explaining anything. How is it that my flag which was around hundreds of years before Hitler is connected to being a communist and being a Nazi? Since when did it become politically incorrect to believe in something? Your ideas of what the flag represents in this country are apparently not the same as mine. You’re explaining your thoughts and beliefs threw the heart and actions of some man (or men) that means nothing to me in respect to being an American. All you've really achieved is giving me a head ache.

While it bothers me to see people misuse the U.S. flag, I don't think the government should step in. The flag is a sign of freedom. So, people should be free to do what they want to the flag. And, while it might bother people to see the flag misused or abused, it's not really hurting anyone. I think Congress should spend their time on more important issues than telling citizens what we can and cannot do with a U.S. flag that we purchased.

That’s why reasonable people vote and write their congressmen when they are displeased with the government. There's other ways of getting your point across in a mature way with out burning the very flag that gives you the freedom to express yourself. Angry out burst has less affect than being peaceful in most cases. If you hate your country you should leave. Millions of people do it all over the world and a good many of them come where else but here.

whatever

> 1. The condition of being free of restraints."**


So go walk in your yard nude, maybe kill someone. What ever you like.

My thoughts are my own, it's you who are using others ideas to determine your own belief. I am childish? I don't need to burn a flag to try to make a point. I’d rather go the adult way of doing things, which is more mature than a tantrum. Tantrums are what little boys and girls have when they don't get what they want, much like you were doing last night my dear.

You've made your point well Wanderers. I'm not really familiar with South Park, but I feel it was in extremely bad taste to feature Jesus defecating on the flag. I don't know who is behind South Park, but it's someone with an agenda to destroy our Christian roots.

It is not so much the burning of the flag itself...it's the pain that the living relatives who have lost loved ones for what the flag symbolically represents. There has to be laws of common decency. There have been many laws made in this country that have incited a lot of confusion, There were some laws that were put into place for common decency...but those laws have been abolished. I feel many laws today and for the last 50 years have been purposely put into place to cause great division. Satan is the god of confusion.

You talk around in circles saying the same thing over and over yet you say nothing that holds any weight. When you are unable to get your point across you resort to anger and name calling, then you mistake that as intelligences. Do you really think I’m going to respond to that in a positive way?

>It is not so much the burning of the flag itself...it's the pain that the living relatives who have lost loved ones for what the flag symbolically represents.

very good point

It's a bloody good job we're not discussing the legality of naturism or murder...
What are you trying to say?

Besides our brave men who have lost their lives for our freedom, I know the veterans that are still living have to be crushed to see what is happening to our nation....our home.

I don't know if you read my other responses to ultimate. Notice the one in which she said if I disagreed with the way she saw things then I should move to a different country. My reply was that I will go to the post office on Monday and apply for a passport.

And if I were one of those veterans, I'd be just as crushed to see amendments like this proposed. To have freedom taken away like that, freedom they put their lives on the line for and watched friends die over, just to have a legislature try to reduce those freedoms in a cynical, political move must be quite demoralizing.

Even freedom has it limits, that why we have laws.

I’ve been around military people all my life and don't know of one that would not be outraged by seeing someone treat their flag like it’s a rag.

Where does one person's rights supercede another's rights? Are you implying that everyone has every right to do anything they wish?

Our solders look to that flag as a reminder to why they are fighting instead of being home with their families. Our veterans seen that flag as something worth dieing for and too many did die. I can’t imagine the anger and heart ache I would feel being a soldier and turning on the television to see an angry mob burning the flag, just to find it’s the very people I vowed to protect.

I neither said nor implied that everyone had a right to do anything they wished. Talking about 'rights' is a very sticky thing so I generally try to stay away from it. Most people use the word 'right' in a very loose way that confuses the discussion so much that it's pointless.

I agree with you Ultamate...I would imagine our forefathers would be turning over in their graves to see what is happening today with our flag and nation. Those veterans alive, I can only imagine what they're thinking.

Their outrage isn't the point. Laws, and especially Constitutional amendments, should not be passed based on who's offended. The bitter irony of protecting the flag while trashing what it's supposed to stand for was my point. The fact that I know veterans who see this irony while you don't, really doesn't matter much.

Dont care, really...............seems a bit OTT (Over the top) though

Heavy thread............... glad I am in a sun-drenched tropical island paradise

I'm hoping my dad is oblivious to it, and hope he never has to see a flag being burned. I think he'd have a heart attack.

The flag is a symbol of our freedoms and yet there are those fools who desecrate our flag or destroy the flag which is stupid

You know veterans who are ok with someone desecrating the American flag? I guess you know those two people.

I have military in family as well. I'm sure they wouldn't like it if some burned a flag, but fighting for the right to express freely is what they did. What happens if I burn a copy of the Bill of Rights, constitution, or a replica of the Statue of Liberty? Am I going to jail for that too?

but burning the flag does not equate to hating your country.............. and mature and intelligent thought and expression at times leads to more involved symbolism. that has been the way of the US for over 200yrs. the boston tea party was symbolic and they were called treasonists etc..... no HATE involved for their country but for the government of england at that time, great disagreement. also, i wouldn't want to live anywhere else due to our freedoms including of speech and expression........... but the current administration wishes more and more say over what they feel we have a say about and don't feel they work for us but that we serve them. i suppose you don't think we should disagree with the president or the war either...........

it's not a tantrum but symbolism that you obviously do not understand. the flag is a symbol, only a symbol, of a country and burning the flag is another symbol which can mean many different things..................

I already answered that question.

It’s a symbol of freedom and of all those who died to give us our freedom. It's a symbol that every military person I've known or know, sees as a sacred symbol. I already went into that too.

But this is about the entire freedom to burn a flag, not half a flag, or anything like that, and this law won't clash with any others. It's just simple freedom to burn a flag.

Anyway, you asked a question and I answered it. I'm not going to get into a pointless argument about what freedom represents and what represents freedom.

Wow, did it hurt taking the logical leap without a net? Where tos tart. OK, nazism and Communsim aren't the same thing. Hitler blamed the bombing of the Reichstag on Communists, and Communists were on eof thre groups of people (along with Jews, Gays, and Gypsies) that were sent to the camps. 2, wow did you miss my point! Making flag burning illegal is uncosntituional and infringes on free speech! That ahs been my point all along. That you are foolishly acting as though the flag itself is more important than what it stands for, which is a belief that hisotrically has been perputuate dmost by Nazis, Fascists, and sundry other forms of Tryanny.

> The flag symbolizes freedom, but that's a symbol,
> a representation; it's like a picture. Limiting
> actual freedom, weakening the most fundamental
> guarantee of that freedom, the First Amendment,
> in order to protect the symbol of it, is like
> someone who's so devoted to his family that he
> keeps a big framed picture of his children, and
> when his house burns down, he saves the picture
> before he saves the actual children.

Oooh, brilliantly put! Kudos.

> You talk around in circles saying the same thing
> over and over yet you say nothing that holds any
> weight. When you are unable to get your point
> across you resort to anger and name calling, then
> you mistake that as intelligences. Do you really
> think I’m going to respond to that in a positive
> way?

In the Superman comics, there is an alternate reality called Bizarro World where everything is backwards. Why do I bring this up? Two reasons: One, to impress my fellow nerds with my breadth of geek knowledge, and tqwo to point out that you must be living there. Why do I say that? Let's look at this portion of your post again. When you are unable to get your point across you resort to anger and name calling, then you mistake that as intelligences. Interesting that you would say that, because a re-read of my posts show you got it compeltely backwards. I satrted out very angry (and justifiably so, you did that "leave the country" false narrative which I loathe), but eventually calmed down. Yet you, for whatever reason, are claiming the inverse is how it happend. Hence, the Bizarro World reference.

> Our solders look to that flag as a reminder to
> why they are fighting instead of being home with
> their families. Our veterans seen that flag as
> something worth dieing for and too many did die.
> I can’t imagine the anger and heart ache I would
> feel being a soldier and turning on the television
> to see an angry mob burning the flag, just to
> find it’s the very people I vowed to protect.

Yet you feel no heartache at the prospect of taking away those freedoms the soldiers have died to protect. Irony, thy name is ultamate.

Again you miss the point. You keep coming back to people being upset by flag burning. Yes, of course people will be upset by that act. The divide here seems to be that some people are concerned with protecting freedom while others are willing to lose freedom in order to protect a symbol of freedom. I understand that a lot of people think it's only a little freedom lost, and not a freedom they particularly care to keep. Still, every freedom lost weakens us as a people and, in my opinion, dishonors the flag much more than anything anyone could do to a physical flag.

I don't really care. I wouldn't burn it or anything and probably wouldn't like anyone who did, but if that's what they want to do...

> There you go stuttering again. You are so
> full of it you don't even know what you’re
> talking about. Get back with me when you
> can talk like a human being and stay on the
> issue at hand.

I'm trying to impress anyone, in case you didn't knottiest; I stood my grown even when everyone else disagreed with me. I have my opinion and I am entitled to it. I could care less who likes or dislikes it. I said "leave the country" in general before I was talking to anyone in particular. I only cursed when I was relaying what I felt that people was saying when they desperate the flag and I only called you a dumb ass when you came back cussing and calling names. I say again, if you hate your country, you should leave. And I add if you desecrate the flag, let the US military stand next to you when you do it.

If you hate your country leave.

Around and around we go.

Desecrating the flag is like stomping on the graves of those who fought for this country and saying f*uck this country. If you feel the need to desecrate the United States flag then move to Iraq!

Today's edition of "Godwin's Law" was brought to you by.....

a survey about flags.. in America.

Speaking as a non-American, this is one of the things that I find utterly incomprehensible about America. A flag is a symbol, nothing more, nothing less. Like any other symbol, it can be manipulated to express approval or disapproval. The idea that a flag has some intrinsic property that makes it "desecration" if you abuse it is just bizarre.

Obviously, if you value a symbol then someone visibly damaging that symbol is likely to be insulting to you. That's the same whether it's a national flag, a religious symbol, or even the maker's badge on your preferred brand of car. You can argue, if you want (and I'd probably agree, up to a point) that it's disrespectful and impolite to deliberately abuse the symbols of other people's beliefs and identities. But going beyond that, and wanting legal protection for a symbol, as if it deserves the same protection as the thing it symbolises, is so utterly stupid as to be beyond belief. That's especially true when all you're talking about is a coloured piece of cloth.

Why Iraq?

Why not Luxembourg, a country with the highest GDP per capita in the world? Why not the Republic of Ireland which, thanks to massive investment from the EU has the highest standard of living in the world? There are many countries in the world with lower divorce rates, lower unemployment, better investment in health and education and a higher life expectancy. Why would anyone voluntarily emigrate to a country with crumbling post-war infrastructure?

There are nearly 200 countries in the world. If your intention is for anyone who wants to burn the flag to emigrate to the craptest country in the world, might I suggest Sudan as the place you tell them to go. Believe me, it's *really* crap. They'd be sure to have a horrible time living there.

Do you think the law should protect this flag?



How about this one?