What is your salary?

I don't take a salary, per se, as I work as a professional artist in a sole-proprietorship mural company, but I picked 10 -15K b/c I think that's what I'll earn in profit this year if things go really well.

I make 5-6 dollars an hour, and the hours I work a week vary greatly. My average yearly income I guess would be around 7,000.

I am not comfortable answering this survey, bill. I am not sure why. I just don't like to give out info about how much money I make over the internet, I guess. It's personal and I thought about just voting without comment or commenting anonymously...but I still couldn't...sorry. :(

Other: no.

I don't feel comfortable with this question either. I may have answered if the ranges weren't quite so precise.

I have the impression that there are some big differences in the salaries of the people who use SC, so I thought I'd ask. It hadn't occurred to me that people would consider this too personal. I wasn't expecting people to blurt out their numbers in their comments.

It seems ironic to me that people seem more comfortable revealing details of their sex life on the Internet than they are talking about their salary...

I also find it odd that folks wouldn't want to "vote" their salary too. I receive and answer a variety of consumer polls so I don't much consider my salary private.

Why is that ironic?...It is smart to be careful what kind of information you reveal over the internet about credit cards and home addresses etc...The fact is, bill, I do not "know" you well enough to reveal this personal financial information on a site administrated by you. A site where you have control over this information once I reveal it. Even if I was to vote or comment anonymously, you yourself have said in other surveys that there ARE ways for you to know who anonymous is if you wanted to know(Do I really "know" you well enough to trust that you mean it when you say you would never do this?nope....I'd rather err on the side of caution)...and you have also said that people can sort of tell by statistics and by who has recently commented who someone may be. I am not paranoid(cautious) about anyone in the world knowing full and sordid details of my sex life. I am paranoid(cautious) about who knows how much money I make. :)

but why?

uh...because....info about my sex life couldn't be used against me..but someone nefarious(not saying that you are...but then *shrugs* I don't know that for sure) with info about how much money I make/have could use it to cheat me or steal from me or swindle me??????No?

I assume we're talking gross, not net.

Wow. I might be embarrassed at how little I make compared to my friends, but I'd never feel unsafe about sharing the information. I can't imagine how that information could be used against me. (But maybe I'm just not paranoid enough... or maybe I just trust Bill.) Sorry this has such a bad rating, I found it an interesting question and I was looking forward to seeing where the clumps in the data were.

i'm not sure i understand the purpose of this question. the cost of living varies so much, even within a particular state, as do peoples' financial obligations. two people can have the same income but if one is living with his/her parents and not contributing to the household expenses, while the other is trying to put three children through college. making $40,000 a year is more than enough for the first person, while the second person is just making it on the same income.

i can understand, if someone is contemplating a career change or is moving to another part of the country, why they would want to know what the salary was for a particular job or how the income compared to the cost of living in a certain part of the country. the purpose of asking an individual what their salary is just for the sake of asking escapes me. i realize there are people who base someone's worth on the amount of money they make, but i thought people in here had more class than that. just my opinion.

bill: I also find it interesting how people suddenly clamp up when it comes to money. Personally I consider my sex life a lot more personal than something as minor as how much money I have. If you know someone personally you already know to a certain extent, and if you don't know them personally the information is just yet another small useless tidbit that people let out freely every day on the internet, like their age, gender etc.

Twister: the only way I could see that information being used against you would be with the IRS if you were cheating tax, and even then if you just gave the same figure you gave them it's not a problem ;)

Emily, what's the purpose of asking people if they liked Star Wars, or what part of their body they wash first in the shower? Because it's interesting to know. That's the purpose of all of these questions, ostensibly, and I can't imagine the reason suddenly changed just because we're talking about money.

This survey has really made me "think" a lot. I mean(lets assume here I am "not" referring to bill because it muddles things), could a dishonest person with access to my first name, last name, email address, birth date and sex, and also with the knowledge of how much money I make use that against me? Or am I just ultra cautious?
I think my hesitance to give out too much personal and financial information stems from the fact that I know people online(Ok this is going to be very telling as to the circles I sometimes travel in :))who armed with certain bits of info can track a person to their doorstep and could cause them all kinds of problems if they wished. Luckily these folks are my friends and I have no fear that they might use their "skills" against me in any way.

Another reason I hesitate is because I believe that talking about one's income might be considered uncouth. My family was very poor. People around me used to lord it over me that they had more money and that their families were better off. This made me feel terrible at the time. As an adult I am fortunate not to be low income. I would hate for anyone to think I was bragging or lording it over them :)

bill I rated this survey bad...initially. knee jerk reaction, I guess.
I am changing the rating to good..... because of the interesting debate it has inspired :)

I counted my gainshare bonus for this year as well as my salary.
I can revote otherwise if you'd like me to.

obviously people are touchy about their salaries; i don't want to be judged by how much money i make; some of the people here seem like snobs and i get enough of that from my parents; money isn't everything

Yes, this is gross not net salary.

Twister, I'm not really understanding why it's so bad that someone can know where you live (that's what you mean by "track you to your doorstep", right?). I have a big yellow book in my house that tells me where 1000's of people live. What do you mean by "cause them all kinds of problems" ? If you mean "do illegal, hurtful things to them" - then yeah, that's the free world we live in. I can open my phone book, pick a name, walk up to their house, ring the doorbell, poke a gun in their face. Nasty stuff, but stupid (on my part). How is what you are alluding to different? It sounds like high-school level bravado to me.

I often contend that Americans are far more hung up about money than about sex - which is saying something! The discussion proves my point.

Of course how much money you make does not define you. Neither does your gender, your sexual orientation, how often you watch television, or the things you buy. It's just something to talk about.

As for the security stuff - don't get me started. Let me just introduce the concept of 'security through obscurity'. Any dedicated person could find out things that even I've forgotten about - but they probably won't because I'm not that important.

madamex: I think you're right about Americans being more hung up about money than about sex. It's definitely true of me. I did check the appropriate box when answering this survey, though, and I'm not too hung up to admit that the box I checked was "zero."

bill...Have you ever been threatened harm by someone online? Have you ever had someone online allude to hurting you or your family and then announce that they know where you live? and then had them back it up with last names and locations even though you thought you were chatting or posting totally anonymously? Do you think that if those things had happened to you...you would feel frightened? or not? What if you were a parent, responsible for safekeeping of a child. Then would you feel fear? or not? Do you really feel that people should not be cautious as to the information that they give out online to strangers?

As for the phonebook, I am unlisted. :P

wow, i always thought americans(of which i am one) were more hung up about sex then anything else!!! hmmmm, i guess money comes in right behind or even!

I can totally see where you're coming from, mandy, since I never give out my name, address, phone number, or things like that. The part I don't understand is how the knowledge of your salary really is that revealing, compared to your name and other things like that. If you're sick of talking about it, don't feel pressure from me to keep going.

twistermine : If you state your salary by clicking on the correct value, no-one is going to know what you put. It's only when you actually state in the comments what you earn, people will then know.

bill: I wish that you would not bring an innocent gun into your example with mandy. You are giving guns a bad name. P.S. Do you want to sign my petition to outlaw steak knifes? Many people each year are stabbed and many more cut by accident while simple preparing food. Do we want this kind of danger in our homes?

Twister - I'll admit that scenario is scary, but I'm not convinced it has anything to do with telling people your name, address or salary. If I make it easy for people to know these things about me, then it's less scary because when they say "I know where you live" - I just shrug and say "yeah, big deal. I'm listed in the phonebook."

I kick people off the Used Game Trading Zone (another site I run) often. ...and I've gotten some threats. Once after some particularly scary ones I got a package in the mail that I wasn't expecting. It occurred to me that it may be a letter-bomb. But then I thought, "no way!". I opened it and it was actually a gift (of a computer game) from a grateful user of the UGTZ. Perhaps the world isn't as dark as Chris Carter would lead me to believe.

Wicksy - you all are trusting me with your answers. I could dig into the database and figure out who any of you answered. Also, you are implicitly trusting people who have privledged access to the system this site runs on (it would be harder for them only because they are likely clueless as to how I organized the database. But they are pretty intelligent...). ...and you are trusting hackers who break into the system and steal the data or hackers who watch network packets go by on the Internet and see you actually submit your vote to SC (they'd have to be very good to do that, but it's possible).

hillbilly: My apologies...

hillbilly ...I'll sign your steak knife one if you sign my lead pipe petition :)and my length of rope petition...and my drain cleaner petition and my telephone cord petition and my tire iron petition and my bare hands petition...and my heavy silver candlestick petition

"The hand can be used like a knife.....but not on a tomato!"

bill..Chris Carter tried to stalk me once. I have him on video going through my garbage for interesting story ideas.... I am not paranoid...what? where? who said that!?

Wicksy: actually, looking on the advanced stats page can sometimes give one a good idea as to who voted how. On this survey, there are currently 8 categories which received only one vote. Someone who had been at SC a while and knew many users' age and sex might make a reasonable guess as to the single voters' identy. It's even more likely if you know users' actual birthdates, since the age information is very specific. On surveys such as this one, which list very specific ranges from which to choose, as well as on surveys that are new and haven't had many voters yet, I refrain from voting if I am uncomfortable with revealing my answer.

Bill: how about using the term "cracker" to denote people who break into systems to steal data?

Wicksy, and anybody else who thinks the voting is totally anonymous- Nobody else has voted in my salary range, so if I mark mine it will show that a female my age is the one who voted...so people who have been paying attention would be able to deduce that it's me. I don't feel comfortable sharing that info, and I don't wish to go into a debate about my reasons.

Hillbilly - I don't think Bill will sign your petition since he likes to lick knives. He'd probably miss steak knives...they're one of the most challenging to lick!

SueBee: even that comment is revealing, if no one else has voted in your range that means we know you make $35,000+

elijahblue: cracker is already used as a racial slur to describe white people. A second use might prompt confusion.

hillbilly: dearest, "cracker" is already in use as the proper term to denote a hacker who's up to no good. Hackers are simply folks interested in exploring the limits of what a computer can do. The media has misused this term willfully for years.

elijahblue: sweetie, "cracker" as a slur may have been around longer than computers. I may have to dig for a reference, would white bread be acceptable?

hillbilly: please don't use the term "sweetie" in that manner. It's the nickname for one of our cats.

bill: Don't call your cat "sweetie." That's what I call my cat.

Well, perhaps we should have a contest to see whose cat is sweeter...
Our cat is very sweet, especially if you consider being bitten sweet.

I intentionally chose to "blurt out" my specific salary range, in association with my name. I have always felt uncomfortable talking about money and salaries, but I don't think that it's healthy to feel uncomfortable about it- for an individual or a society. Many times, when I've worked for other people, I've been specifically requested to not discuss my salary specifics with other people. How do you know if the policies in this area are fair if you don't talk about it? How do you know if men/women, blacks/white/Hispanics are being treated equally? If all pay is based on merit and experience, then it might be good to point out who you consider the most meritorious, for other people to follow the example.

For the most part I think I am more likely to feel uncomfortable if I believe I am making more than my peers. But why? I know I'm very good at what I do, but I suffer from some false modesty (not that you can tell right now) and am afraid that if I'm working in a group, and other individuals know that I am being paid more, then they will shun me or resent me. So being silent about my pay becomes similar to a school kid hiding his or her intelligence.

So the reason I said that I gross about $12K per year is to practice saying things like that. Not that I'll up and say it at a party or something, but so if I'm asked on a job by a colleague, I'll be practiced at it. In high school sex-ed we had homework to say the words "penis" and "vagina" out loud at least 10 times in conversation. That way if we needed to talk to a partner about, for instance, safe-sex, we would be accustomed to the vocabulary. Same idea. $12K $12K $12K

Oh, and in terms of security? I don't imagine this site to be any more secure than any of a number of other places someone nefarious could search for information. It's pretty easy to get access to credit checks through TRW (or whatever they became recently) by just paying them their standard fee. Even if I made 10 times what I do, I wouldn't imagine that having that information out here would put me at any greater risk than I already am through larger privacy holes.

Topper - If I understand correctly, your business is relatively new. As a sole proprietor & artist you have great potential to increase your income exponentially over the years. Those of us working for someone else probably don't have as good a chance at increasing our wages so significantly.

It really disturbs me that people who are so into computers don't care if they perpetuate the stereotype of hackers as malevolent.

And hillbilly, amazingly enough, we have many words in English that are spelled and sounded the same yet have different meanings. Cracker is the proper term here. Period.

eb, I'm confused by how important this hacker/cracker thing is to you. Both words are fairly new (at least for the computer-related meaning we're talking about). Who is to say that the media's use of hacker is less correct than your definition? Where did you get your definition? from hackers? (like the ones who hold the "Hacker's Conference"?)

By your definition, I would call myself a hacker; but I wouldn't do this in public as the word now implies nefarious goals and tactics. ...and I like to think that I'm one of the good guys.
I'm not sure what good asserting that hacker means something else will do. Isn't it too late (once the media spreads a meaning for a word, isn't it too late to change that meaning after millions have heard it used in their context)?

I'm not picking a fight with you... I think.

Depends how you define 'fairly new' - I could very well be wrong on this but I thought the word had been in use (in a computer context) for 20+ years, certainly a lot longer than the media has been using it anyway. And who is to say the medias definition is less correct? How about us (the users)? :) We're the ones who actually know what we're talking about after all ;)

The way I always understood it in the past (ie before the big "oh no! you're WRONG! they're not hackers! they're crackers!" obsession everyone seems to have now, which if you hadn't already gathered just irritates me) is that they're both hackers - they both hack into things and look around, whereas only some are crackers, who do it for malicious reasons.

bill: it's not majorly important to me, it's just annoying, and no one else is speaking up. People have a right to define themselves, as has been so eloquently argued with regard to Christians. I got my definition from hackers themselves, yes. And I totally see their point. The media fails to make a distinction between hackers that crack and those that don't, because they enjoy stirring up hysteria about the net. The fact that you won't call yourself a hacker means you are letting the media co-opt the word. You should be proud to be a hacker.

Yes, but I don't want to be misunderstood; thus "computer nerd" is a better name to call myself as people see that as harmless. ...and I am harmless (mostly).
You are right about the media, stirring up hysteria is their job I guess. Without them, life would be so dull.

If you are hacking into a system "just to look around" it is like breaking into a house just to look around, as opposed to stealing objects like a "cracker" (computer related definition) would. No mater what you call yourself to make yourself feel better you are still trespassing in the sense that you are going into a place that the owner/creator does not want you to go.

hillbilly: first of all, hackers do a lot more than cracking into systems to look around. Hackers are into stretching technology to its limits and finding out what can be done. As for your scenario, often a better analogy would be if someone left their door wide open, and you wandered into their house to see what was going on. Also you'd tell the person about it afterwards: "hey, you left this side door open, you shouldn't do that." Many hackers try to break into someone's system *with the person's permission*, specifically to test it for security.

elijahblue: my deepest apologies, I did not realize that hackers were so noble.

As a side note, the "Breaking" of "Breaking and Entering" refers to breaking the threshold, even on an open door (not smashing your way in). The laws are not written so that if you do not lock up your stuff you have no right to it. If that were the case I would have more lawn furniture than I do now.

Really? Then why does it need to be Breaking and Entering? That seems redundant. I thought "breaking" was breaking in to a locked place, and "entering" was illegal entry.

I retract my earlier statement of "By your [eb's] definition, I would call myself a hacker". I don't try to break into computer system, not even just to prove it can be done. That seems juvenile to me.

hillbilly: I love how you are ignoring that MOST hackers do NOT "break and enter."

bill: What's the problem here? Do you honestly not know this in the first place (that would surprise me)? Am I not expressing myself well? Hackers are interested in expanding technology. Period. They may or may not be interested in breaking into people's systems. If they are interested, they usually do it in a nonmalevolent manner.

Is someone who breaks into computer systems in a nonmalevolent manner a hacker? Is so, I'd prefer not to be associated with them.
I feel there's an important difference between "interested in expanding technology" and "breaking into people's systems".

bill - I consider a hacker someone to respect. Someone who pushes the envelope of whatever technology they use, trying unusual and unexpected and often unconventional things to contrive new solutions, and often elegantly simple ones.

I don't work.

eb: I have given some thought to your argument and would like to adapt it for my own use. When I modify one of my car engines so that it will go even faster than before, and well above the speed limit I am not speeding, I am "pushing the envelope of technology".

If hacker was intended to be a glorious term it would be a different term. Hack is similar to butcher and other words that describe crude methods (my apologies to those involved in the meat trade). Hacking, phreaking, and other similar ventures were not developed to make the world a better place.

Also, if somebody is hired to break into a system to test it they are an employee, not a noble rouge warrior.

P.S. Who made you the spokesperson for all of the definitions of the English language?

hillbilly, you are a car hacker...

I put last year's salary. This year, I am making much less.

don't work