In some countries, prostitution is allowed, in others, it is forbidden. Irrespective of where you live, do you think it should be legal or illegal?

It should be their right to decide what to do with their bodies.

I think prostitution (but not pimping) should be legal.

legal, regulated, health inspected, and taxed.

oooh moral decay, moral decay!

on the other hand, bill has a good idea..

North79, isn't prostitution often legal in Canada? Sex trade seems more common in Canadian cities (sex shops and such), and I've heard it's legal there (but I don't know if that's true or if it's true everywhere). It's legal in Nevada, U.S...

bill..no, but out west it is a growing problem, in Vancouver in particular. I am not certain as to the permissiveness of British Columbia's provincial laws but I am quite sure it isn't legal anywhere in Canada.
Prostitution occurs about on par with the US, but right now there is a great deal of concern concerning YOUNG prostitutes..a 14 year old from Toronto was in the news last week after being arrested by police. She'd already been working the streets for two years.

The thing is, with victimless crimes, such as prostitution, making them illegal hurts more people than it helps. I don't think this has anything to do with moral decay, since prostitution has been part of pretty much every culture for as long as anyone's been recording this kind of thing.

Check out the the transcript of a special report John Stossel did for ABC News on victimless crimes in the US.
80526_trans.html

Who the hell says prostitution is a victimless crime? One of my friends from grade school had a sister who was forced to prostitute herself, she was being pimped by his (and her) older brother. Despite the risk of disease, the risk of pregnancy and the emotional and physical scarring that results from multiple abortions there are numerous other reasons why prostitution should be illegal. Prostitutes are subject to abusive treatment, they are usually incapable of forming lasting and healthy relationships with men, they are more likely to develop alcoholism and drug addiction. Not only are prostitutes more likely to be victims of child abuse themselves, they are more likely to have children that will be victims of abuse. I could go into greater detail about how angry a blase, "sophisticated" attitude towards prostitution makes me; particularly when it comes from people who don't know crap about it, but I won't because it's unlikely to make one fudging bit of difference. I will say that when I was a stupid kid and I didn't know any better I didn't pay attention to these things because I figured that they didn't matter. I know they do matter now and I'll no longer pretend that they don't.

anonymous, I can understand your anger with this situation, it sounds awful, but can you step back and see that it's the very illegality of prostitution that makes most of these consequences the case?

When I say "victimless crimes" I mean that the two people committing prostitution, the prostitute and the customer, are not committing a crime against each other. In the situation you cite, the pimp was committing a crime (or several) against the prostitute, namely extortion, forced labor, battery, etc.

If prostitution were legal and *regulated* (an important part of the process), prostitutes would be have to be licensed, which should include disease-testing, contraception education, age verification, etc. They could have health plans, unions, and all the other advantages of legal employment. They would not be part of organizations whose other interests are the dealing of illegal drugs (most of which I think should also be legal and regulated). Their union could provide psychiatric counseling and educational opportunities, perhaps. Pimps could be prosecuted for their crimes against these women.

By advocating that prostitution remain illegal, you're not doing anything to fix the problems attendent upon it, you're just perpetuating the current situation which you claim to abhor. No one is going to get rid of prostitution, that seems to have been proven repeatedly. What we need is a solution to the *problems* that go along with the current set-up. I believe that legalization is a step in that direction and I'm not at all blase about it.

hunter--I am not saying that we should let things stay as they are. I advocate program that rescue prostitutes from the life, particularly prostitutes that are minors. However I don't see how legalizing prostitution will alleviate the evils of prostitution. Simply put there is no safe way to have sex with three to six different people every night. Increased exposure to disease and increased risk of pregnancy is inevitable. Multiple abortions are also inevitable because when you make your living on your back you can't take maternity leave. Simply, and crudely, put a whore that is pregnant won't have customers. Finally that much enforced sexual intimacy with strangers strips women of their ability to relate to men in a healthy way. Like it or not sex with strangers is not a healthy lifestyle no matter what precautions that you take.

To say that we should let prostitution happen simply because we lack the will and the compassion to actually stop it smacks of expediency and cowardice. Should we make rape legal simply because we have trouble stopping it? Perhaps we should licensce rapists and ensure that they are disease free and sterilized. We can spend the money that we would save from imprisoning and attempting to rehabilitate these psychos in cash settlements to rape victims. Maybe there would be enough left over to build a Stealth Bomber or two?

I don't believe that we can stop consensual prostitution. I think there will always be people who are willing to pay for sex and people who are willing to have sex for pay and I don't think that's a crime, (although no, I don't necessarily think it's a good idea). I think that programs that help women to find other, better options and that educate them about the non-obvious risks of prostitution are a very good thing. But I think that criminalizing prostitution and allowing it to continue unregulated, as we do now, is completely wrong. I don't think that's cowardice, although I certainly think it's expedient, more importantly I think that legalization is a practical solution to some very serious problems that have never been solved by making the practice illegal.

Your analogy to rape is specious, since rape is very much a crime with unconsenting victims, which prostitution, in and of itself, is not.

This is an issue I have looked into previously. I recommend (to everyone, not just anonymous) the San Francisco Task Force on Prostitution's report at http://www.bayswan.org/ushist.html and a report from Denmark, where prostitution has been legal for a long time http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~rmak/europap/rapden.html

"Why is it illegal to sell something that is perfectly legal to give away???" --George Carlin

Make it legal, but get rid of it through the following ways.

1: Mandatory drug and STD tests.
2: Tax the crap out of them.

Legal, but it should be better regulated.

No thanks

"Like it or not sex with strangers is not a healthy lifestyle no matter what precautions that you take" sounds like a moral judgment, not a medical one. I know prostitutes who put themselves through school that way and enjoyed every minute of it. They don't seem scarred now. It all depends on the environment. I'm willing to bet that legalizing prostitution would cause a better environment for those who wish to be prostitutes. We already have laws against people being forced into prostitution; if it occurs, we can simply enforce them.

It should not be legal any place in this world because most prostitutes are drug users so they are really out there spreading disease around

...provided there are some very strict rules regarding health and safety, I think that people should ply that trade if they so desire...

patty - what does using drugs have to do with spreading disease?

Nyssa---Let's assume for a moment that the effectiveness rate of condoms is 99%. It is, in actual practice, considerably less than that but we can assume 99% for the sake of argument. Assume then that the prostitute in question sleeps with three to six strangers each work night, and let us also assume that she works five night out of each week with two weeks off for vacation. That is 50 times 5 times 3-6 (lets assume an average of four. A total of a thousand strangers a year. Assuming a 99% effectiveness rate for the condom that still means that the woman is having the equivilent to unprotected sex ten times each year barring any accident, rape or unforeseen circumstance.

Tell me would you have unprotected sex with ten strangers who are known to frequent prostitutes every year? I wouldn't. I would consider that an unhealthy lifestyle. Let's say the prostitute and only gets pregnant 1.5 times a year. That still means 15 abortions between the ages of 18-28. That will result in cervical scarring and possible permanent damage to the uterus. Again an unhealthy lifestyle. I could go into the aspects of drug addiction, abuse, frostbite, etc. but you would consider those arguments to be moralizing as well.

Also, your damn right that a moral judgement is involved. You are so fudging smug as you sit in front of your computer talking about how horrible it is that I'm opposed to prostitution. I think that it is unlikely that you have seen the evils that are caused by it, otherwise you wouldn't be so glib. Your girlfriends probably got a thrill as they accepted $200 from their boyfriends' father for a lollipop, but that isn't anything like what a prostitute does. You probably have never seen a baby who was underweight from FAS or seen someone whose skull was cracked open by a hunk of cement because she kept out some money for her kids' birthday present.

What you want is to formalize the arrangement where women fudge for money, but when you look at it you see it as a way to keep women who marry for money from having to live through a loveless marriage. But in poor neighborhoods prostitution is ready money and where there is money in poor neighborhoods there will ALWAYS be violence.

The best way to stop prostitution is as follows. First, don't bother arresting prostitutes; they have enough problems already. Also an increased number of suppliers will result in a decrease in price making prostitution less attractive to organized crime. You will thus have more "independents". Second, arrest johns and put their pictures in the newspaper. This will reduce the demand for prostitutes and market pressure will gradually eliminate it as a major societal problem.

Far be it from us to suggest that your experience might not be the sum total of relevant input to an issue.

hunter--- Point taken. However, have you ever seen something with your own eyes and then had people conspire to insist that what you had seen is not so? I don't think anything that I have said here is false, I would welcome anybody who can prove to me differently. So far, however, I have only seen a lot of weak arguments based on "conventional wisdom". I recall the arguments for ending prohibition are similar to these arguments that you present. Indeed, the ending of prohibition has allowed alcohol to be taxed and eliminated people going blind from wood alcohol. However, the number of people, per capita and absolute, who drink heavily has increased some number-fold. A recent study in Alaska of neighboring "dry" and alcohol permissive counties has shown HUGE differences in the rate of violent crime including familial abuse.

There is no question that prohibition can result in problems. What you don't seem to realize is that regulation can cause even more problems. Look at needle exchange programs (another expedient measure). Cities that have them have an influx of junkies, an increase in the number of users, a corresponding increase of crime committed by those who are hurting, and only a nominal decrease in the rate of increase of AIDS cases. Junkies tend not to practice safe-sex.

I simply have not seen ANY convincing evidence that permisiveness will reduce the problems that are the result of societal iniquities.

No one has suggested that what you have seen is not so! What has been said, over and over, is that what you have seen is not necessarily all that there is to be seen. You experience may not be representative of all relevant experience, yet you have formed an opinion on the basis of your experience and you attack people who suggest that perhaps there is more to the issue than you have seen.

Steve-You say that I have pre-formed a prejudiced opinion, and am disregarding the experience of others. In other words you are calling me a bigot. However, I don't see how the facts that have been presented by others contradict, in any way, what I have said. I also don't see how or where the regulation proposal would answer, to my satisfaction, the points that I have raised. Finally, I don't see any evidence that proponents of the opposing viewpoint are considering or internalizing my experience on this issue. In fact I see a nonchalance by opposing parties about the very real suffering that prostitution inflicts.

First of all, are you taking into account that you are reading this? I could be sobbing as I type, aching for each and every prostitute who has ever been beaten, enslaved, scarred, addicted, arrested, etc., etc., and you would never know it. In fact you are way off base concerning what I have and haven't seen for myself. But I don't want to get into dueling experiences, because I don't think it's the whole story.

I don't mind that you disagree with me on this. I do think that your complete dismissal of everyone on this site, your anonymous attacks and insults, are not conducive to anything except people thinking you're rabid and narrow-minded. If you, with your experience, can be here participating in this forum, then why do you assume that everyone else is an uncaring automaton? If you want to persuade anyone to your point of view, I would suggest that you find something other than anecdote to back up your opinion and that you present your views in a less vitriolic way.

anonymous, I think there's a distinction between recognizing what has happened in the past (and is happening right now) and what could be done in the future. My impression is that you're stuck in a rut pointing to the evils of prostitution today and saying "Look, it's bad, look, it's bad!" Yep, it's bad. We got that part the first or second time around.

The fundamental difference between your view and that of some of the other posters is the basic question of "How sinful/bad/terrible is it to pay for sex?" Your own ideas for stopping prostitution - stop going after suppliers and go after the demand and use a scarlet "A" aka the media to brand the johns - depend on people believing that paying for sex is an intolerable act and then taking action on that belief to apply peer pressure on the johns. What you've been seeing on SC is that a number of people here (myself included) don't believe that paying for sex is bad.

The larger question is whether the current situation would be changed by prostitution being legalized. I believe that the situation would change, but not by much for the same reasons why needle-exchange programs don't necessarily succeed all that well - so long as rest of the socio-economic picture is the same for prostitutes/pimps/etc. then twiddling with one variable like the legality of prostitution or availability of clean needles won't have much effect on that picture. Would it change it enough to start letting other ideas have a place and therefore have the greater change that some people here have envisioned? Maybe, but there would be an awful lot of work to get there.

hunter---Dismissal? You have yet to directly address any of my arguments! So far there have been three people who have said that I am foolish, pigheaded, moralistic, hypocritical, rabid, narrow-minded, dismissive, and wrong. I have also been criticized for anonymous attacks and insults. I think the worst thing that I've called anybody is smug (admittedly fudging smug) and I still think that's accurate. The reason that I am anonymous is because I don't care to share painful memories from my childhood as myself or even as my alter-ego.

I'm sorry, in the time that I've taken to write this I've also been called shallow, a god-squad reactionary, a propagandist, a pawn who is subject to programming and a person who is incapable of arriving at a contrarian opinion on my own. Dismissive has just reached new heights.

I'm so glad this forum is full of forward-thinking and tolerant individuals who are so accepting. I will be sure to use Jen and Jonathan as role models for all my future interaction on this forum.

anonymous = elijahblue?

anonymous, you said prostitution is bad because it involves enslavement by pimps (I agree, forced labor is separately illegal, pimps should be prosecuted for their crimes against prostitutes and I think this is more likely to happen if prostitutes don't face arrest for their trade), because it involves drug addiction (often true and I think getting prostitution out of the bailiwick of organized crime will help to break this connection, as well as making the slope from prostitution to illegal drug dealing less slippery), that prostitutes often get pregnant (I agree, I would like to see contraception--if we go with my preferences, I'd make implants mandatory for a license, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish) and then have babies with serious health problems and post-natal neglect (both of which could be ameliorated if these women could form legitimate unions and other trade organizations to get healthcare and childcare programs), that these women are psychologically scarred by their experiences (something I think would be improved if their profession were not seen by society as immoral, as well as illegal and which could be treated by counseling and therapy more easily if these women had such resources available to them and were less afraid of admitting what they do for a living), and that they are prone to catching diseases which go untreated (again, I'd want to see regular check-ups as part of the licensing scheme, with treatment provided) and get passed along (you fail the test, no license, you're caught hooking, that's illegal...over time, I would hope we'd see johns asking to see your license before giving you money). Generally, I'd like to see vastly more education and resources available to these women and I think stopping treating them as criminals is a step toward getting those resources for them and making their lives better more effectively than the centuries of moralists telling them they're evil have done. What did I miss? I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I'm happy to keep trying.

In the meantime, I feel that you have called me (either specifically, collectively or implicitly): blase, stupid, naive, immature, expedient, cowardly, happily complicit in the ridiculous spending priorities of the US government, conspiring with rapists, smug, glib, ignorant, and spoiled. You accuse me (and others with whom I agree) of depending on "conventional wisdom" when I have, in fact, presented you with reference materials from three different sources, based on fact, data and interview, which support and inform my position. Have you read them? Have you offered me anything in return that might persuade me? I don't think I've had a chance to be persuaded by you, but rather attacked from the beginning and offered nothing but your own anecdotal experience.

Oh, and no, if you go back up, elijahblue says she thinks prostitution tho' not pimping, should be legal.

..and I thought I was long winded in the guns good/guns bad debate! :)

anonymous #2: I totally disagree with anonymous, its views in no way shape or form even come remotely close to slightly approximating mine. As I said above, I think prostitution should be legal. Got it? And would people stop assuming every anonymous is me? It's starting to creep me out. I am perfectly capable of being vitriolic and stubborn WITHOUT the guise of anonymous.

pardon me, but not all prostitutes are female.

romkey, you're absolutely right...sorry about that.

hunter--I have no control over what you feel but if you will read through my posts I do not say the you are happily complicit with the spending of the US government. I did not say you were spoiled. I have never accused you of being conspiring with rapists. It is rather disingenuous of you to suggest that I did. That passage was a reductio ad absurdum where I was drawing corralaries to the legalization of prostitution to eliminate problems to a similar legalization of rape to alleviate "difficulty".

Several other comments that had to do with someone being spoiled, smug, etc. were not directed at you at all but at Nyssa. You have no call to bring those up.

The remainder of the epithets that you attribute to me were not directed at you. They were directed at your ideas of how to palliate the evils of prostitution. You yourself called them expedient and the others are a description as to how I view your ideas, of how I STILL view your ideas. Apparently any suggestion that I make that you are not correct in every particular is counted by you as an attack upon yourself. I feel sorry for everyone who knows you if you allow no-one to disagree with you without counting it a personal (and vitriolic) attack.

Finally you acknowledge the serious problems that are linked with prostitution and you wave your hands to make them go away without really considering them. Let's say that the government does as good a job regulating prostitution as they do regulating taxi-licensing...bad example, in DC most taxi drivers have fake licenses and the cops can't catch them. What if they do as good a job regulating prostitution as they do the garment industry...darn, another bad example...many garment workers work in sweatshops and they use illegal immigrants to keep from having to obey the laws of the land. What if they do as good a job as they do regulating the meat industry? Oops, another bad example, we can't seem to eliminate pathogens from our meat and now federal inspectors aren't allowed to look at the meat themselves, they are only allowed to audit reports of meat industry representatives who look at the meat.

What if, however, unlike EVERYTHING else that is regulated they do a good, complete, comprehensive job of regulating prostitution then why am I still not reassured? Because regulation cannot make the ills that accompany prostitution go away. I think that you have rose-colored glasses if you think that.

Okay, I told myself I wasn't going to answer you any more because, yes, I think you are considering nothing but your own experience in forming your decision. But I just couldn't let the serious logical flaw in that last screed go unanswered. Silly me.

We can't seem to eliminate pathogens from our meat. Of course. But the meat is a hell of a lot cleaner than it was before government regulation was instituted.
We can't seem to regulate taxi drivers so that there are none out there with illegal licenses. But American tourists who come back from places where taxis aren't licensed at all do so clutching their chests and thanking their lucky stars that they came home at all.
We can't seem to stamp out sweatshops. But if the people who worked in them were not illegal immigrants, then they would have the option of asking the government for representation in their battle with their exploiters. Just as, if prostitutes were not practicing an illegal trade, they would have the option of asking the government for representation in their battle with their exploiters.

No one is claiming that everyone should be a prostitute. No one is claiming that prostitution is a great thing. But when you say that legalization with regulation is a bad idea, you are effectively saying that you prefer the status quo. And you hate the status quo. You have made that abundantly clear.

What you really want is for prostitution to just go away. And you are not the first person to have this idea. So how are you going to arrange it? How are you going to succeed when societies have been trying and failing for thousands of years?

Steve---It is only a logical flaw if I were arguing that unregulated legal abortion was better than regulated legal abortion. Since I am arguing that prostitution should be illegal there is no logical contradiction. Second, it is true that I hate the status quo but I think things would be worse if we made prostitution legal. Bad is better than worse. Third, I have outlined my plan for reducing the occurance of prostitution. It is in a previous post and I will not repeat it.

screed! Bravo on your vocabulary, Steve! It sounds like something out of Dr. Seuss!

Hm... somebody needs to get laid, and soon.

anonymous = Wicksy

This business of trying to "out" someone else as a particular anonymous commenter anonymously is pusillanimous horsecrap.

pusillanimous! Steve, you continue to wow me! I must create a special icon for you!

ANONYMOUS : Why do you think I wrote that, I have been ill the last 3 days, I haven't written anything !!!!!

Romkey, sorry I did not say what I meant more clearly what I meant when I wrote most prostitutes are drug users so they are really out there spreading disease around is most prostitutes well where I live anyway 99% are drug users and they share neddles and most of them have all kinds of disease most of my friends are police and they say most of the protitutes they arrest do not use condoms most of them that share their needles have HIV. I did not mean people who use drugs spread disease.I'm not good at saying what I mean when it comes to writing or spelling as you can see.

Anon: I took the time to read through your comments, and wish to respond. Please do not dismiss me as being 'smug' or 'of the intellectual unknowing crowd' because I hold different views than you do. I'm not a teenager. I've lived in the city. My sister has been a prostitute, I have friends who have been prostitutes, and I have personally considered it at several points in my life. I do not imagine I can change your experiences or view of it; I just want you to better understand my own.

My experiences have been without pimps. I agree with you (and others) that pimps are bad. Your comment about a woman "forced to prostitute herself" is an example of why. Removing the pimp would help prevent women being beaten, being taken advantage of - some of your complaints. Assume what we are discussing is a situation without a pimp.

You are concerned, properly, with the health of the prostitute. You mention risk of disease, pregnancy with the abortion problems. You are assuming here that the choice is prostitution on a large scale vs no sleeping around at all. I do know people who sleep around that much without being paid for it - it's not illegal. I also know women who prostitute on a small, select scale. Some have had surgery so they can't get pregnant, most use condoms with foam. None prostitute on the scale you speak of, none have gotten pregnant. Yes, many work in not-so-ideal conditions. This health area is one of the key reasons I seek to legalize it - health conditions can only improve. Mandated testing, certificates of health.

You have various stats that prostitutes are more likely to be victims of child abuse, and more likely to abuse their own kids. I'm pretty sure in general that victims are more likely to be victimizers, regardless of their occupation. 'Prostitution causes this' statements are spurious. Prostitutes come from all walks of life. The poorer ones are more likely to be victimized than the richer ones, the drug-addicted ones are more likely to participate in criminal activity, but I doubt any of these have anything directly to do with the fact that they are prostitutes. If we gave them a better work environment, with more support, I believe we could address these other, ancillary problems.

Your fourth point I'll address is that sexual intimacy with multiple men destroys one's ability to relate to men in a healthy manner. Again, I know friends who enjoy sex in general and enjoy one night stands. Male and female. It is their choice, and should not be something we legislate to protect them from themselves.

I realize completely that your experience has been different, but consider that prostitution is currently illegal and women and men still do it. We are not preventing individuals from prostituting by making it illegal. We cannot blame the 'John' but claim the hooker, who offered in the first place, should be set free. If a person makes this choice, as a rational adult, we should gear our efforts to helping this person to live a healthy life. It is not the government's role to mandate how a person chooses to live his/her sexual life, and what he/she wishes to barter for in return.

Nyssa--You have put a lot more thought into this than I gave you credit for and I'm sorry that I was hasty earlier. This is a topic that I am passionate about and it is easy for me to blow my top. I think that we will have to agree to disagree on this issue because it seems that the gulf between us is irreconcilable.

I will acknowledge that the caveat about prostitution causing abuse is not rigorous. I know, however, that in poor neighborhoods that ready cash will always result in exploitation. Legalized prostitution will, in my opinion, result in more terrible conditions in these communities. I cannot say that "middle-class" abortion would result in the same iniquities and indignities. Perhaps I am hopelessly entrenched with industrial age ideas and legalized prostitution has come of age in a service economy. I can't help but wonder at the costs involved though and I don't see the benefits to be worth the risks.

My few interactions with the court system in this country have led me to conclude that it is needlessly clogged up with prostitution cases.

legal definately!!!

I agree Twistermine