Is weight discrimination sometimes acceptable?

Yes. There are lots of reasons that a fat person or an unnaturally skinny person would impress me less at an interview than someone the right weight for their height. I think that they are valid reasons as well. Not just relating to their health, but also to their character.

In the circumstances described, I don't think that it would be fair to discriminate. If I have this right, I'm assuming that whatever the job is, their weight is not going to be in any way a factor in their ability to do the work. Trying to predict who is going to have future health problems based on limited knowledge is pretty asinine IMHO. It makes as much sense as trying to predict who is going to get pregnant, or who is going to find a better paying job or whatever.

However, I could understand someone discriminating based on other concerns. Let's face it; we aren't talking about a few extra pounds here. The person you are describing is morbidly obese. A lot of employers wouldn't want someone like that working in a position where they were interacting with clients. Any job that had even a small amount of physical activity might be too much for them.

Of course, the thing is, employers can always discriminate any way they feel like it. No one has to know exactly how they arrived at their decisions.

30 stone is pushing the boat out a bit

seems to me that is like anticipating that a better qualified woman might get pregnant or that a black man prospect might get hypertension because his chances are greater. so no, i don't think it is acceptable.

No, you shouldn't discriminate, especially if they're better qualified.

"The person you are describing is morbidly obese"

This phrase exactly matches the real life example I am thinking about. We have employed someone who is really fat. He can do the job, but is unable to do any exeration without getting out of breath. In all seriousness, I reckon he'll die or have a heart attack in the next 10 years. (Hes 35-45 years old now) In which case hes going to be a liability.

No,if the person is qualified for the job is not.But if the weight prevents them from being qualified then it would be unacceptable and a PC silliness to employ them.

Other. In this case you should not discriminate, but I wouldn't say you should never discriminate. If an obese person has a history of weight related illness you should be able to at least insist the lose weight before you invest in their training.

In this case the potential employee is currently healthy, and for all we know could be healthy until they are 90. Discrimination against people because of what they might do isn't right.

Really... you are qualified to judge their character based on their appearance? Do tell. So you're sure that the cause of the unnaturally skinny or fat person being skinny or fat is a character flaw, rather than a disease which is not their fault? You must be psychic!

I hope you have the opportunity to be trapped in a body which deteriorates against your will, so you can experience all the "valid" judgement from others...

"is weight discrimination *sometimes* acceptable?"

No. It's illegal to discriminate this way, isn't it?

I would sat that it is okay to discriminate when hiring a bouncer at a club, for instance. You want a big beefy guy, not a weedy person. Similarly, when employing a diver or astronaut, you don't want someone over weight who will undoubtedly have health problems.

This is Holland, not America thank god!

What in the world is your point? You said that extremely fat or thin people wouldn't "impress" you and that you thought you could make a valid judgement about their character. It's VERY unlikely in a job interview situation that you would have enough information about someone to judge their character based on their weight!!

The number of people who have extreme weight problems because of underlying diseases is minute. Those people who do, pose a risk anyway. Both extremely underweight and extremely overweight people are going to have trouble getting through a working day without overexerting themselves or passing out.

I didn't say I wouldn't hire them, but I would have concerns about their ability to do the job. As for making character judgements, that's what an interview is for. Weight problems would just be one thing counting against them, along with things like them not using reasonable English, not making eye contact, not having made any sort of effort with how they dressed, etc.

I'm not a doctor... How could I know this person will get sick?

You are, quite simply, wrong. The number of people who are anorexic or who are extremely thin because of such diseases as Cancer or AIDS is LARGE, and growing. The number of people who are extremely fat because of endocrine disorders, while smaller, is NOT "minute". And one disease, PCOS, that results in sometimes large excesses of weight, is becoming more common all the time.

And the fact is, you *don't know* why someone appears the way they do simply by speaking with them in a job interview.

No, but you have to try and find out, otherwise what is the point of interviewing them at all?

If the weight stood in the way of how they do the job today...then yes you could hire the other person and it would be ok.
If you are projecting what "might" happen based on their weight, that is not ok.

I weighed over 240 pounds when I started my job(which is extremely physical)five years ago and my weight has never been an issue at work. I can lift and run all day long and I do a much better job than the *strong HWP* guys that work there who come in late in the day for a short shift...rush around trying to *look* busy the first few hours...do the least amount of work they can get away with and then sit in the backroom and eat and read.
I am on my feet practically the whole time I am at work which sometimes equals 10 hours! I may stop to pee or grab a quick bite to eat but then it is back to running about, putting away freight, helping customers, carrying out purchases etc etc etc....In fact, the physical activity level at work has improved my health and helped me to firm up, build muscle and start to get a handle on my weight.
Each individual person needs to be judged as just that, an individual. I would certainly say that my work ethic and character outshine my co workers who are both HWP.

I am offended by the suggestion that my weight problem might somehow be related to my character. I am not lazy. I am not inactive. I am clean. I do not smell bad. I have good blood pressure and have never missed work because of a weight related illness. I keep up with and most times surpass the productivity of my "normal sized" co- workers.

I am glad I was allowed the chance to prove I could do this non traditionally female job. Not just as a woman, but as a woman who isn't "normal sized" for my height.

My boss is also a gurl. You might know her too. She isn't "normal weight" for her height either but can toss 100 pound bales of hay around like they are nothing.
You may want to rethink your obvious bias against people who are not "normal size".

My first reaction to your comment was just to tell you to Fudge Off. And that sickens me because of who I am and who I was about to say that to. I didn't quite realise how personal this issue is for me or how deep into me this prejudice runs until now. It isn't something that I can rethink because it isn't something that I consciously choose. I'm angry and I find that so frightening. I can't even begin to understand why this has upset me so much. I mean I know why, but I don't understand why.

I'm sorry.

If it helps at all...I delivered that comment in a normal polite tone and I am offended by that "one" idea you hold, not by "you" as a person.
I wasn't looking for a fight. I wasn't looking to illicit a "fudge you" response. I just had to express my "truth" and let you know how that "idea" offended me as an overweight but active, healthy, hard working person.

It doesn't help. Not because I'm not grateful to hear it because I am, but because I know I have a lot of hard thinking to do. About stuff I didn't want to think about and that I still don't.

10 years?!! Who has the same job for ten years these days? No one I know.

When you say "We have employed...", do you mean that this is your company, and you hired him?

i guess if you are PC then you shouldnt discriminate...thats my cop out answer

test comment

Yes its my company, and no I didnt do the hiring. But I was thinking about how overweight he is, and concluded that there is no way I'd have hired him. This is what propmted me to do the survey, becuase I realised that I was in fact prejucdiced in this decision, but thought that perhaps it is justifiable in this case.

No, someone else employed him. But thinking about his weight made me realise theres no way I'd employ him on health grounds. In coming to this decision, I realised that it is in fact a form of prejudice, but decided that it is in fact justifiable on this occasion.

No, someone else employed him. But thinking about his weight made me realise theres no way I'd employ him on health grounds. In coming to this decision, I realised that it is in fact a form of prejudice, but decided that it is in fact justifiable on this occasion.

No, someone else employed him. But thinking about his weight made me realise theres no way I'd employ him on health grounds. In coming to this decision, I realised that it is in fact a form of prejudice, but decided that it is in fact justifiable on this occasion.

So how long has he been there? How's he working out so far? (Aside from the prolonged wheezing, following a bout of highly aerobic stapling...)

Nearly a year now I reckon. I reckon hes a waste of space personally, but then again I dont really know what he does. If he so much as goes into the kitchen to make a drink, hes out of breath. We arent talking merely a few stone overweight here. We are talking grossly overweight

You have employees that you don't know what they do? That can't be a good thing. What sort of business is this? How many employees are there?

You're right though, your comments would seem to indicate a prejudice. On one hand you're saying that your concern is that he's going to drop dead on the job, or be a drain on the company's health plan, but it sounds more like you just cringe having to look at him. Somewhere in the back of your mind is an image of him cashing his pay-cheque, spending it all on creme donuts and having a naked orgy with them in front of the telly. Come on, admit it. That's what's really going on here isn't it?

You've got to consider that the employer is acting in his own self-interest, and of-course there are various reasons he might now want to hire an overweight person. Assuming he owns the company-- he should be allowed to hire (or not hire) whoever he wants for whatever reason he wants. Practically, people do this anyway 9hire whoever they want for whatever reason they want) and there is nothing that can be done about, despite existing law; thank God.

Obese people are obese because they take in more calories than they exhaust. It is that simple. If they either eat less or exercise more it isn't going to be an issue.

Of course there are some biological contributions, but, I can't imagine many ases where they are significant factors.

Wow! I was amazed that you said that! I agree. :)

*considers changing her stance*

Also, Anorexia is a mental illness and, like any other mental illness which isn't purely psychiatric in nature, is a good basis on which to make a hiring decision. Just because it is a mental disorder, doesn't mean it is involuntary. You've really got to consider that when you look at these cases. The anorexic's 'social self' (as described by William James), will probably respond to the demand characteristics of the therapist or interviewer or whoever, and the social pressure. In order to reduce interpersonal dissonance and avoid conflict they'll be likely to SAY that it is involuntary; nonetheless, they know damn well what they are doing and why they are doing it. (Realizing this is a critical part of administering appropriate treatment.) BTW, do you have a MSW or a Psy.D. or something else? Where do you work?


Whether they, in reflection, think it is desirable (whether they view the behavior as being ideallic (some might (more than you'd imagine))), is a different matter entirely.

As with any voluntary disorder, depending on the subject they may or may not *regret* the behavior pattern (note the number of "Pro-Anna" sites on the 'Net)-- chances are that if they came in for treatment (voluntarily anyway) they probably do want to quit the behavior... but this isn't an accurate sampling of the subjects in the general population.

My experience with anoretics dictates that they appreciate the attention, it is physically pleasurable (I don't know if you have personally starved yourself until you aren't hungry any more, but it is intrinsically rewarding for the first couple days after you get through the hunger!), the goal they are trying to accomplish of becoming more attractive (which for a girl just means 'noticeable', because once a man notices a woman his next thought is that he wants her...) is generally accomplished... I mean, until the late-late stages of the disease (which most don't even get to).

Even my experiences with a mid-stage anorexic girlfriend had a certain level of romance to them... just the nature of it all. I mean-- it's hard to explain, but, y'know, there were desirable aspects to it. I haven't talked to her for a while but looking at her I don't get the feeling that the behavior has extinguished. She'll probably fall into the typical pattern-- either getting over it when she gets a steady relationship and moves out, or becoming EXTREMELY severe as she begins to lose attractiveness otherwise with age (mid-20's), and tries to make up for it.

In any event, how can something like anorexia NOT be grounds for discriminating in hiring? It's like alcoholism! I mean, really, I see anorexia as being directly analogous. It's this voluntary addiction cycle... the individual just plain likes it. Resistance to therapy is the #1 problem with treating Anti-Social PDs, Anorectics, and Substance abusers.

*I, personally* might hire an anoretic girl, but not quite because she is going to be the most stable person for the job. .

(Did you notice how I used anorexic, anoretic, and anorectic without any consistency? You should try it, it is fun.)

Actually, I think this would be a GREAT experiment for the bona-fide pipeline technique (perhaps you have heard of it?)... uhh... I think it's also known as... semantic priming/lexical decision task?

I wonder what people really do think of when they think of anorexics... Hmm. I'll bet my left nut that there is a strong hit for anorexic-beautiful as a pipeline.

I figured But that's just because I'm so fun to argue with...

Uh...yeah...I'd noticed that.......

You know it's fun. It's like those toy-dolls that stand up on their own. You knock them over but they just keep springing up again... Hours of entertainment...

People end up laying into them with deadly weapons after a while......

Yeah, bobo dolls, there we go.

The learned violence of children? It goes something like that doesn't it...?

Hehe-- not from England they don't.

English children don't learn violence, or do you mean something else?

(I just meant that you won't be attacking *this* bobo doll with deadly weapons... I mean, unless you have access to a missile silo I wasn't aware of.)

You can never be sure. I do have access to British Airways though (if I apply for a passport). Once in America it shouldn't be hard to buy a machine gun from the local toy shop......

No, it shouldn't be. You're going to have to show them I.D. to prove that you are 12 though.

Unfortunately, an AWFUL lot of people look at a bone-thin woman and assume she is anorexic. I would hope someone wouldn't discriminate based on someone appearing anorexic, without knowing for sure that they are.

*checks*

Yep, I can manage that. No ID to prove I'm old enough to buy alcohol though so covering my tracks may be harder than I hoped....

joalis: a bone thin woman IS anorexic, but may not have anorexia

Agreed. I had a friend like that too. She was a model. Jessica was her name (which is my favorite name). Needless to say I considered dropping a big forty pound TV light off the ceiling and on to her boyfriend one day... I decided not to after I realized she'd probably be too distraught to date for another week or so.

If you are alluding to the case of Calista Flockhart (is that her name? I don't really know. Something like that, anyways.), I suspect she actually is anorexic. I mean, there's no way to know without talking to her, but from what I've seen...

Agreed

I didn't know that 'anorexic' meant anything other than having anorexia. It's confusing. I hope the use of 'anorexic' to describe how someone appears falls out of use. Thin people don't need to be confused with people who have an illness.

I wasn't alluding to Calista Flockhart, just incredibly thin people in general.

yes, two different things. i have a friend who eats plenty is 5'4" and weighs about 90. she is anorexic but does not have anorexia in any way shape or form. she eats all the time, doesnt think she is overweight, tries to gain weight. she doesnt have bulimia either...now she may have another medical issue such as hyperthyroidism...but that is another issue...

I looked it up. People are misusing the word. If a person is extremely thin, that doesnt necessarily mean they are "anorexic"

Main Entry: 1an·orex·ic
Pronunciation: "a-n&-'rek-sik
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1907
1 : ANORECTIC
2 : affected with or as if with anorexia nervosa

--------------------------

Main Entry: 1an·o·rec·tic
Pronunciation: "a-n&-'rek-tik
Variant(s): also an·o·ret·ic /-'re-tik/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek anorektos, from a- + oregein to reach after -- more at RIGHT
Date: circa 1894
1 a : lacking appetite b : ANOREXIC 2
2 : causing loss of appetite

medically speaking, (in the field) anyone considered too far below 'normal' weight is considered and documented to be anorexic in a patients chart. (they dont mean to be anorexic)

anyone considered too far below 'normal' weight and means to be for fear of gaining weight or being fat (mental issue) is considered and documented to have anorexia nervosa in their chart. (they mean to do this)

perhaps there are somewhat different 'definitions' in medical dictionaries? i dont know, i just know how we do it in legal medical charts...so i will have to stick with what i said since thats the experience i have.

oh, ok. I still hope it's use doesn't confuse people. There are probably a lot of really thin people who wouldn't like to be called 'anorexic'

agreed! they write a lot of strange things in medical charts. one of the first ones i remember was asking a patient oh, say for example: have you ever passed out before? patient says no. chart states patient denies syncope. or whatever the subject...patient denies trauma...etc. i found that to be kinda argumentative. patient denies, what you think they are lying? no thats just the terminology used. a lot of it is very strange, and interesting too.

Its a bit of both. it IS unpleasant to look at him.. he sweats a lot, is very flatulent apparently (so I've heard) (no pun intended there)

I don't know what he does cos hes in a diff deopartment.

And yes - one day he could well just drop deap. Would you want that to happen at your workplace? (Its office work BTW)

There should NEVER be any kind of discrimination when it comes to hiring someone. As long as they have the necessary skills and qualifications to do the job you should hire them unless someone else is better qualified. You should never base your decision on "lookism", "ageism" and the like.

But what if you have genuine concerns that this person will suffer future health problems?

While that should be a concern I feel it shouldn't be a reason for not hiring someone. Just because someone is fit and trim doesn't mean they couldn't have a heart attack. Have you ever heard of Prevention founder Robert Rodale. He was in great condition, ate a healthy, natural diet, yet he had a heart attack while being interviewed on a radio show. So you see, what a person looks like outside does always truly reveal what they are like inside.

I don't really believe weight discrimination is acceptable at all, but I do see why fat people can't do certain jobs (like modeling bathing suits). I am fat, and I definitely know weight discrimination exists. The fat ladies' department is always upstairs in the corner, or way in back of the store.

If there is a physical risk involved there should be no discrimination but you should require a waiver of responsibility for injuries or illnesses that incur as a result of the job for ALL employees. Otherwise, you should hire the best candidate for the job and insurance will cover illnesses and injuries.

Seeing as this is office work there is no physical risk but there is a general concern over his weight causing more health problems in the future. You can not discriminate against him because of his weight. He might be the best computer tech you could hire. He might be a great supervisor. He might be a great employee. He just has a weight problem. You don't really know what his job is so you can't judge his abilities. There is a liability but it would not relate to his job. His duties can not hurt him. They may only make him healthier or more fit. He might not have gotten the job at the modeling company or as the gym trainer but he deserves a good job just like the rest of us, tall, short, fat, skinny, average and unaverage people. We all deserve a chance to have a good job where we can work and be happy. Maybe he's not in as good a shape as some of us but at least he doesn't go around judging and starting surveys about other people he works with. Not that you did anything wrong by creating this survey because it has opened a few eyes to obesity, anorexia, and the prejudices against them both. I just mean that we have no right to put this man's dignity on the line here. I just hope that he hasn't discovered SC so that he doesn't have to see his life grossly displayed on the internet for all to see. Again, by no means am I criticizing the creator or any commentors of this survey. It has been a good exercise for us all. I simply mean that being obese is not necessarily a term of judgment or a write-off on a job opportunity. There are many great jobs that an obese person can do just as well, if not better, than a thin person. I wish this man the best.

You cannot use an example to prove a case. The guy in question probably has a 50% chance of dropping dead in the next 10 years. This doesn't mean that he *will*, but what it does mean is that he is far more *likely* to drop dead that the alternative employee. The precise future cant be predicted, but in this case doesnt the balance of probabilities dictate that you should not hire him? Perhaps you think that he should be hired. In which case, where is the line to be drawn? What if the guy has only a 30% chnage of surviving 10 years. What if its only 10%?

Note to all the survey was really intended to be about Health, rather than Weight

Would the discrimination be due to a concern for his well-being (this job might give him a heart attack) or is it a concern for the company? (They don't want to deal with workman's comp and whatever else)

Concern for the company. Its not a stenous or stressful job.

No! If he or she is capable of doing the job, the more qualified person should be hired. There's no sense in justifying discrimination based on what may occur in the future. For all you know, the person may lose weight and have no complications related to the job!