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essay26-Oct-2002opinionJemmy unsorted701064.5%

  How do you feel about guilt passed down through ancestry?

For example, in the 1700's, the Acadians were deported out of Nova Scotia by the British. To this day, some ancestors of the Acadian people are still requesting an apology from people of British descent. This could also be something along the lines of a black person hating a white person because of their great-grandmother being enslaved by the other person's great grandfather. Even hating the grandchildren of the person who killed your grandfather is an example of this. Is the placement of guilt based on ancestry legitimate, or is it going too far?

UserComment
Enheduanna Survey Central Subscriber
posted 27-Oct-2002 8:43am  

People need to get over it.
That being said, various atrocities need also not to be forgotten, because that's the best way to make sure they don't happen again. But they should be remembered by educating everyone about them, not by the descendants of the victims constantly griping about them.
LindaH Survey Central Gold SubscriberGold Star Survey CreatorSurvey Qualifier
posted 27-Oct-2002 9:04am  

It's totally absurd.
Biggles
posted 27-Oct-2002 9:06am  

I don't believe it can or should be.
Irene007 Survey Central Gold SubscriberBronze Star Survey Creator
posted 27-Oct-2002 9:07am  

It's going too far.
The present government had nothing to do with those decisions... An apology is not necessary, however, the present government can reassure them of their new policies to indicate that this is not likely to happen again? That should be enough...
kaleb777
posted 27-Oct-2002 10:53am  

I think it's one of the worst types of prejudice since people are born with the expectation that they immediately owe another group of people something simply because of the race or ethnic group they are born as. Many racist groups in Australia, especially the Greens political party, have demanded that white Australians apologise for what happened to the Aboriginal people when the British first colonised Australia. This is not only racist but makes no sense. Many white people in Australia are not of British origin. They have ancestors from all over Europe. Many people with British ancestry weren't even born when the last negitive discriminatory legislation was removed (there is now positve (?) discrimination legislated). Many Asians and other races have lived in Australia just as long as white people. Why are only white people asked to apologise? Some British people have just stepped off the plane as new immigrants and immediately they are considered somehow responsible for what happened hundreds of years ago. Finally, most British and Irish people who first came here were brought forcably as convicts. They didn't want to be here in the first place and had very little to do with laws which discriminated against Aboriginal people. Calling for people of British ancestry in Australia to apologise to Aborigines makes as much sense as calling for them to apologise to Native Americans for what the British did in North America since they had as much to do with both events.
Biggles
posted 27-Oct-2002 10:55am  

It's a bit like original sin. Even if I was a Christian, I wouldn't believe in that. And if I did, I'd want nothing to do with a God who considered that important.
Jemmy
posted 27-Oct-2002 11:12am  

I think it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard about. And in my Canadian history class, I was like, practically shot down for saying that I didn't understand why the Acadian people were requesting an apology. I mean, the people who were exiled are dead now. The people who exiled them are also dead. It's over, and it had nothing to do with me. And the whole thing about the aboriginal people being here first. I think it's ridiculous. I mean, the first people who were in Canada are dead now. Times change, and cultures change, and it is completely insane that there are some aboriginal people who want money from the government just because their ancestors were treated badly. Their ancestors, not them. It's crazy. And when I was little, I used to have to watch all these movies about slavery and the underground railroad and racism today and stuff. I mean, that's great and everything, but you have to understand, these were bad movies. Just completely and totally propaganda and crap. I'm like, 6 years old, and I seriously and truly thought that I was a bad person because I was white. That's how much they tried to pass down the guilt. And then when I finally spoke up about feeling bad because of the color of my skin, my teacher was like, well, there were some white people who were good, just not enough. And I was like, well, what can I do about it? It's not my fault, I wasn't alive. It's such ridiculous crap, I can't even wrap my brain around the concept of blaming people for things their ancestors and relatives did.
Jemmy
posted 27-Oct-2002 11:16am  

Wow, this is really interesting. So far, most people who have commented feel more along the lines of how I do, but when I voiced my opinion in class last week, I was the only one who felt this way. Strange....
juliw
posted 27-Oct-2002 11:49am  

I don't see the point of it at all. I am sorry that anyone kept slaves, and treated them poorly, but I don't feel responsible for it. There is enough to worry about in the world as it is, without bringing up ancient history.
juliw
(reply to Jemmy) posted 27-Oct-2002 11:50am  

They probably felt that way, too, but were too afraid to speak up. Good for you!
darkshadowsseeker
posted 27-Oct-2002 12:42pm  

I disagree with it completely. I don't believe in hating someone because of what someone in their family did. Chances are this happened long before you were ever born. At any rate in the case of a person hurt by a grandfather, how could anybody with a grain of common sense think it's appropriate to hate the grandchidren unless they were physically involved? The same goes for slave reparations. I totally against them. Why should we be punished for what a small number of people in the U.S. did? Not everybody in the U.S. has ancestors who owned or trucked in slavery, in fact some of our ancestors hadn't even immigrated to the U.S. yet.
spidertea
posted 27-Oct-2002 2:10pm  

I would not hold anyone resposible for something they had not done. I hope others would do the same for me.
spidertea
(reply to Jemmy) posted 27-Oct-2002 2:11pm  

Maybe you should print out our comments and show them to your class!
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
posted 27-Oct-2002 2:39pm  

It is absolute nonsense. There is a similar thing which I don't think should be confused. That is when a person, a government, or a corporation has profited by criminal exploitation of a person or people. Their rightful heirs should be able to find redress in the courts. Of course in cases like these, it is up to the plaintiff to provide substantial evidence to back their claim.

When this was in qualification yesterday, I saw some comments about "slavery reparations" (which the explanation alludes to). I did a little web search, as this was an issue I had no knowledge of. After reading arguments from both sides, I must say that I think these claims lack any merit. At least in terms of "all US blacks get money/land from the government/taxpayers". The corporate claims or individual claims if there are any, might have merit. That would be for the courts to decide.

One thing that I found amusing in all that, is that an American black is probably WAY more likely to be a descendent of a slave owner than any randomly selected American who isn't black!
Jemmy
(reply to juliw) posted 27-Oct-2002 2:46pm  

I don't think that they were afraid to speak up. They spoke, up, but it was more about how they believe that you can pass down guilt through generations. A difference of opinions, I guess, but I still can't understand theirs.
Jemmy
(reply to spidertea) posted 27-Oct-2002 2:47pm  

Yeah, that would definatley show the people who were like "Well....that's a different point of view", like nobody else on earth feels that way.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to juliw) posted 27-Oct-2002 2:49pm  

Don't get this the wrong way. I'm not about to defend slavery, but I've heard some very convincing arguments that it wasn't as bad as how it is usually portrayed. Think about it. What do you treat better, the car or house that you rent, or the one you own? Slave owners had incentive to treat their "property" better than an employer treats their employees. I'm not saying that some slave owners didn't abuse their slaves, I'm just suggesting that they were probably a small minority. I don't think that the treatment of the slaves was ever as much of an issue as the inherent evil of the institution of slavery.
Jemmy
(reply to Zang) posted 27-Oct-2002 2:55pm  

That's really interesting. So, when I watched those movies as a child that painted all white people, past or present to be horrible, cold-hearted, abusive butt-holes, and all black people, past or present, to be a poor group of mis-treated, helpless souls who were abused by everyone, it was more of an exaggeration than I thought.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to darkshadowsseeker) posted 27-Oct-2002 3:20pm  

Not only were slave owners a very very small minority, the government in Washington fought and won a war 137 years ago to put an end to slavery. Perhaps if they had lost the war, and the capital of the US were now in Richmond, Virginia, there might be some point to this exercise. The present government represent the forces opposed to slavery. It makes no sense to hold them accountable.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to Jemmy) posted 27-Oct-2002 3:24pm  

Those movies were probably propaganda films from the civil rights era. Although their intent was in some ways admirable, they were propaganda nonetheless. The phrase "white liberal guilt" comes to mind.
magbast
posted 27-Oct-2002 4:58pm  

all i can say is, we can't change the past
juliw
(reply to Jemmy) posted 27-Oct-2002 6:29pm  

I can't understand their opinion either. It all seems pretty ridiculous to me to blame people for things that happened that long ago.
juliw
(reply to Zang) posted 27-Oct-2002 6:32pm  

I hadn't thought of that! You are absolutely right! That makes it all the more ridiculous for people to blame us today for something that happened years ago. Thank you!
harekrishnadasa
posted 27-Oct-2002 6:53pm  

Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to juliw) posted 27-Oct-2002 7:01pm  

The way slavery and the slave trade is portrayed in contemporary American history books is less than accurate. I'm a bit of a history buff, and one of the things I've spent some time studying is African history. What isn't commonly talked about is the dynamics of the African slave trade with Europeans. In many ways it parallels the situation between Europe and China.

China had lots of stuff the Europeans wanted, but the Europeans didn't have anything to trade with the Chinese until they introduced opium. The Chinese tried to halt the opium trade, and wound up losing a war over it.

Similarly, the Africans wanted to trade with Europe but didn't have anything to trade that the Europeans wanted. Until the Europeans began plantation economies in their New World colonies. The slave trade was already well in place in Africa long before Europeans showed up. Typically, the slaves were condemned criminals and prisoners of war. Bet they didn't teach you that in high school!
Jemmy
(reply to Zang) posted 27-Oct-2002 7:54pm  

If you think it's admirable, more power to you. Being a girl who was crying over the color of her skin at age 6, I find ot a little hard to be open-minded about the whole thing.
Jemmy
(reply to juliw) posted 27-Oct-2002 7:55pm  

I guess we just have more insight than the rest of the people! maybe I am wise beyond my years after all...*wink*
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to Jemmy) posted 27-Oct-2002 8:11pm  

No I didn't mean that it was admirable that it made you feel bad. The intended viewers were wealthy white liberal American adults who were supposed to support their cause (ending segregation).
Jemmy
(reply to Zang) posted 27-Oct-2002 8:19pm  

Wow, so those were some really old videos then. If I was watching them when I as 6, then that was in like, '92. They also probably weren't meant to be watched three times a week for the entire months of february and March.
darkshadowsseeker
(reply to Zang) posted 27-Oct-2002 9:10pm  

I agree completely. It's amazing how many people are unaware of the VERY SMALL number of actual slave owners there were. Some people I've talked to seem to think that if your ancestors lived in the Deep South back then they must have been slave owners. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Most people couldn't afford slaves for starters and many of them resented the slaves because many slaves lived better than they did. My great-grandfather was born and raised in Missouri and his family moved from there to Iowa because it was common for the Rebels to "recruit" young men by force. His parents were not Southern sympathizers and did not want to risk my great-grandfather being "recruited" to serve in the Rebel army. Even though he was only around 10 years of age he would have been taken.
rhino3
posted 27-Oct-2002 10:02pm  

I wish people would move on and stop living in the past. Most of what they are talking about did not even happen in their lifetime, or even to anyone in their family let alone anyone that they know of period. I think it perpetuates racism, hate, etc. I think it is very sad, too. I think we, as a human race, will never "get to a higher level" if we can't let it go. Imagine whirled peas.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to Jemmy) posted 27-Oct-2002 10:36pm  

Were you watching "Eyes On The Prize" on PBS (Frontline)?
romkey Survey Central Gold SubscriberBronze Star Survey Creator
posted 27-Oct-2002 10:54pm  

It's not something I think about. It seems ridiculous.
bcollins
posted 27-Oct-2002 11:20pm  

No, why should anybody feel guilty about what their ancestors did? Why should anybody hate another person because that person's ancestor did something to one of their ancestors? It's all a bunch of BULLCRAP! *angry*
mikehunt696
posted 27-Oct-2002 11:55pm  

I think it's a ridiculous concept. The government is different, the people involved are no longer with us. Why should we be punished for something with which we have no involvement. I wasn't opposed to the reparations we made to the Japanese-Americans whose property, land and freedom was taken from them and they were confined to internment camps. Did you know that George Takei (Sulu) was in an internment camp when he was a small child. We did owe these people reparation because it hasn't been that long ago and some of those interned are still alive, but on the other hand I totally opposed to slave reparation. Not everybody was a slave owner and the ones that were, were confined to only a small section of the U.S.. The enslaved people have been dead a long time and I don't think the entire white race and the government should have to pay a nickel. The government of the North didn't support slavery and that's one of the reasons we had the Civil War. Another issue I have is the blame that's being passed onto the white people, some who had yet to immigrate to America. My ancestors certainly were not involved in the slave trade, so why should I or anybody else be punished. Those who want slave reparation should go after those who trafficked in slavery instead of lumping us altogether and while they are at it, go after some of their own ancestors in Africa who sold their own people into slavery. If you think slave reparation is right (and I don't), then this is the only way to pursue it.
Maarten Survey Central Subscriber
posted 28-Oct-2002 5:03am  

I think it's bullcrap. Some Surinam people still wants apologies (and money of course) from the Dutch government for slavery in the 16th/17th century.
Dino
posted 28-Oct-2002 7:40am  

I think its pretty stupid really. I can kind of understand the misplacement - I have known people have done horrible things and then when you see the rest of their family you assume them to be equally as horrible. But the apology example you describe is just pretty stupid. As far as hating someone's family for what a relative did is a pretty odd one. Depends on how the family feel about their relative. What were talking about is two people. One hate an individual and the other group love the individual. Very complicated and touchy.
Glassa
posted 28-Oct-2002 9:04am  

It's silly. I can't do anything about what my ancestors did and I shouldn't apologize or pay for something I didn't do. Furthermore, the person I would be apologizing to didn't suffer the ill will, and deserves no apology.
TeddyMiller Survey Central Gold Subscriber
posted 28-Oct-2002 9:40am  

I guess I'd say placement of guilt based on ancestry isn't legitimate, but neither is placement of wealth or advantages based on ancestry. If you're going to argue against placing guilt like this, you should also argue for large estate taxes, against legacy college admissions and extending copyrights, and all sorts of other things.
Cain
posted 28-Oct-2002 9:45am  

Yes. You cannot be held responsible for the actions of your ancestors. It's a ridiculous concept.
vickyturks
posted 28-Oct-2002 1:23pm  

how silly is that?
they Survey Central SubscriberHappy Birthday to Me
posted 28-Oct-2002 1:46pm  

I really would have liked to see options here.

I think it's ridiculous.. The one I hear about the most is the white/black thing. I can't be positive.. but I'm pretty sure my ancestors did not own slaves.. at least not african slaves here in the states. Most of my family started out in Wisconsin after slavery was abolished(I think). I have the dates somewhere of when they came over from Germany..
teatree
posted 28-Oct-2002 1:47pm  

It's absolutely ridiculous!
tapmysweetness
posted 28-Oct-2002 2:33pm  

Its rediculous.every single human is there own person.every act is individual.to put that onto others is simply ignorant.
Jemmy
(reply to Zang) posted 28-Oct-2002 3:23pm  

Um....I don't know. I was only in first grade. It was just these videos that were designed for african heritage month that we would watch at every library session for all of february, and march too, because videos made the librarians job easier. We'd watch them in class too.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to Jemmy) posted 28-Oct-2002 3:37pm  

Oh so it was school. Well, I hope you're all over it now. Your feelings of guilt that is...
Jemmy
(reply to Zang) posted 28-Oct-2002 3:48pm  

Yeah, by about the age of 7 you learn to think for yourself and realise that they're all just kind of dumb. No permanent damage done! *smile*
Locutus
posted 28-Oct-2002 3:51pm  

It's stupid. Why can't people just accept that someone is not responsible for what his/her ancestors did?
juliw
(reply to Zang) posted 28-Oct-2002 5:30pm  

Nope, they sure didn't teach us THAT part. That's really interesting. I never paid much attention to history in high school, mainly because I didn't like to read anything but novels and magazines. I did pretty well in English and math classes, but history and science classes were another story. Now I love to read, and wish I had learned more. One of my hobbies is local history. I love to look things up about my city, and have quite a few local history books and old pictures of my city.
juliw
(reply to Jemmy) posted 28-Oct-2002 5:32pm  

You are indeed wise beyond your years. (I wish I was!)
dora
posted 28-Oct-2002 5:49pm  

I like this survey,but don't know how I don't feel like answering...
Jemmy
(reply to juliw) posted 28-Oct-2002 6:30pm  

Well, it's kinda hard to be wise beyond your years after you turn like, 20.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to juliw) posted 28-Oct-2002 6:35pm  

I'm a local history buff too! My friends like to use me as a tour guide when visitors come to town.
sonikJ
posted 28-Oct-2002 8:05pm  

I think it's ridiculous. We've been through countless decades of history since then, and the people in each of these cultures now had nothing to do with the events of the past.
juliw
(reply to Jemmy) posted 28-Oct-2002 8:12pm  

I am 48, so I guess if I was wise much beyond my years, I would be senile!
juliw
(reply to Zang) posted 28-Oct-2002 8:16pm  

Cool! If I ever make it to Vancouver, I think you would make an excellent tour guide!
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to juliw) posted 28-Oct-2002 11:01pm  

I'd be tickled pink! *grin*
autumnlight
posted 29-Oct-2002 6:44am  

I think it's a tad ridiculous. I'm not going to be held accountable for anything any of my relatives have done,and I don't expect anyone else to either.
joachim
posted 29-Oct-2002 10:40am  

The way I see this making sense is if the people in the present feel believe the same attitudes exist today as did when the original events happened. Residents of Nanking might, for example, want the Japanese government to issue a statement acknowledging that the Japanese army committed atrocities there during the war. That would indicate that present-day Japanese feel bad about what happened, which might improve relations between the two nations. But I'm not sure an apology would make much sense in that case, because the current Japanese government was not responsible for the acts. The issue of financial restitution is closely related with this one and makes things even more tricky.
Glassa
(reply to TeddyMiller) posted 29-Oct-2002 11:41am  

"I guess I'd say placement of guilt based on ancestry isn't legitimate, but neither is placement of wealth or advantages based on ancestry. If you're going to argue against placing guilt like this, you should also argue for large estate taxes, and extending copywrites"

One has nothing to do with the other. Why should we take away the hard work of a family just because someone dies? That's not fair. Plus, the family has supported those responsible for the wealth (starting a business, inventing something, etc), so they too should benefit even after the person's death. No one else is entitled to their possessions and to say otherwise is just pure greed and jealousy.
And there should be NO guilt in creating a business, or inventing something. Another thing you should think of is the number of people employed by the business who would lose their job with the high estate taxes. They'd have to either close or sell the business just to pay the taxes (that happens now).

Don't be so quick to suggest high taxes, you might be the one to end up paying them. Especially if you work hard. Most rich people have had to bust their rears to get where they are. My father-in-law works 80 hours a week and is quite well off, but he's kicked ass to get there.
So don't be so greedy and jealous of those who are better off than you. Stick to it and you can be one of them.
joachim
(reply to Zang) posted 29-Oct-2002 12:00pm  

But the problem with your attitude is that it doesn't do much to prevent bad things from happening again in the future. It's fine for people living in the South to say "oh, we were too poor to own slaves, and besides there weren't many slave owners and plus most slaves were treated pretty well really" but in fact that's just making it easy for them to shrug off the real issue, which is that today, because of the events that happened in the past, black people still basically get shafted in this country. They're poor, uneducated, unhealthy and they still get beaten up (or even lynched, if some Survey Central members are to be believed). This country made a commitment to improve the lot of a people it had disenfranchised, and it has not fulfilled that commitment. I don't feel any guilt about my ancestors having been slave owners (or slaves, more likely) but I feel a lot of guilt that people in my nation are still abusing and mistreating other people just because they were, at one time, property.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to joachim) posted 29-Oct-2002 2:55pm  

I disagree. What is going on today has little or nothing to do with what happened in the past. I think that people who think of themselves as victims will always be victims. People who spend all their energy wringing their hands over the past, will never move on. Everyone has the opportunity to make what they want out of their lives. I agree there is racism, and I think that racism is one of the most pernicious evils on the planet, but the racism in the United States doesn't just go one way, and it isn't an excuse to wallow in self-pity.
southernyankee Bronze Star Survey Creator
posted 29-Oct-2002 4:27pm  

i think its stuip and pointless. unless off course you have benifited personally from the opression, directly or through inheritance, and are better off not living in a ghetho but instead in a nice suburban house, then no, there really is no reason to feel guilty, or angry with anyone else because their ansestors have done something.

this is way thank gawd for interracial breathing. that way eventually people will have answestors of both "their" oppressors and the oppressed, unless of course they're willing to hate themselves and feel guilty at the same time.
juliw
(reply to Zang) posted 29-Oct-2002 5:34pm  

*smile* Thanks! I'll start saving my money!
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to juliw) posted 29-Oct-2002 6:06pm  

*wink*
joachim
(reply to Zang) posted 29-Oct-2002 7:01pm  

I don't think worrying over the past makes sense either. I think you need to worry about the present, but usually the present-day situation is shaped by the past. I believe the attitudes white americans have toward black americans are shaped by the attitudes their ancestors have had. And I believe these attitudes are part of the problem black americans have achieving a more equal status in this country. I don't think anyone should fatalistically give up because the world is against him but I firmly believe african-americans need more to make it in this country than their own self-esteem. They need white people to become more tolerant, and I don't think that's happening. Quite the contrary, in fact, and that depresses me.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to joachim) posted 29-Oct-2002 7:38pm  

It is a lot easier to change your own attitudes than it is to change other people's attitudes. People are a lot more likely to stereotype someone who behaves in a stereotypical manner. Yes, the past has brought us here, but if we desire to break with the past, that begins here and now. Racism is primarily a state of mind. We cannot put an end to racism by focusing more attention on it. Racism will only end when people stop thinking about it.
joachim
(reply to Zang) posted 30-Oct-2002 8:19am  

Let's say I stop thinking about racism. Then I walk in to scenic Dorchester, Massachusetts and see a bunch of black people out of work and lounging around on the street all day. Clearly they are lazy. The next day a black person comes to interview for a job with my company. I immediately turn him down because I just found out yesterday that black people are lazy. He returns home to Dorchester and sits on the street with a forty because he didn't get a job. It is precisely this vicious cycle that IS racism. If somebody told me I was racist I might be able to get out of it, but as long as I'm not paying attention, the cycle will continue.
Jemmy
(reply to juliw) posted 30-Oct-2002 12:20pm  

Yes. Although some senile people are quite intersting, so it may not be a bad thing!
Glassa
(reply to joachim) posted 30-Oct-2002 2:01pm  

I don't know what part of the country you live in to be able to say that black people still get the shaft. MY GOD! Oprah Winfrey is the richest woman in America, Bill Cosby had the number 1 show for several years, and Damon Wayans has a top 10 show on now. This is just a couple of examples.
There are those who give black people a bad name. Firstly Jesse Jackson (what a total joke), Louis Farrakahn, Kweisi Mfume and others of the like. These people incite racism with just their words.

But more black people need to listen to a man named Larry Elder. He's got some great ideas.
www.larryelder.com
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to joachim) posted 30-Oct-2002 2:35pm  

If you weren't "thinking about racism" you wouldn't have seen a bunch of black people lounging around on the street, you would have just seen people. Their race would be unworthy of notice. That's what I mean by "thinking about racism". So when someone you'd never met applies for a job, their race is not an issue.
juliw
(reply to Jemmy) posted 30-Oct-2002 5:32pm  

*laughing out loud* You're right. I am half senile, myself!
Jemmy
(reply to juliw) posted 31-Oct-2002 4:08pm  

Ah, we're all a little crazy. It adds character! *smile*
juliw
(reply to Jemmy) posted 31-Oct-2002 5:45pm  

*laughing out loud*
joachim
(reply to Zang) posted 31-Oct-2002 7:34pm  

But the problem is that their race is an issue! It is a major contributing factor to their living in a slum and not a posh suburb! I understand that if no one had any preconceptions, life would eventually get better for everyone. But that philosophy just doesn't work in the real world and if you need proof you need do no more than go to any country in Africa, South America or Central/South Asia. Nobody has anything against Cambodians (or black americans), they just aren't willing to go out of their way to help them, even though they are at a disadvantage compared to everyone else. That's racism. Ignoring it and just treating everyone the same is also a form of racism because it accepts the racism of the surrounding culture. I don't feel better about myself every morning just because I didn't lynch a nigger the night before. I would have to actively help out a person disadvantaged because of race to feel that I am not racist.

Actually I sometimes get very annoyed at people who come from ethnically monotonous countries and call Americans racist (that's not you by the way, although I'm sure many Canadians would fit the bill). Usually they're more racist than we are but they don't know it.
joachim
(reply to Glassa) posted 31-Oct-2002 7:45pm  

There have been rich and famous black people in America pretty much since the beginning. But that doesn't have anything in particular to do with the average person. I mean Bill Gates and I are both computer guys but we lead pretty different lives. Blacks are doing better - they are gradually making inroads into the American middle class and they're more accepted by white people than they have been in the past. But if you compare their progress to other ethnic groups, things don't seem to be going as well. Immigrant groups from Western, then Central and finally Eastern Europe have all done very well here, as have Chinese immigrants, Koreans and now Indians. Here in Boston it seems clear that even African immigrants are moving up in the world faster than African-Americans. Latinos have done pretty badly here but they also are doing better than blacks. Why is that? Larry Elder might say it's because too much coddling has given African-Americans low self-esteem. And he might be right. But I think if racism or even counter-racism has ingrained these feelings in that people, they must have also ingrained some feelings in the rest of us. Perhaps a feeling of superiority? Or pity? Whatever they are, they're probably not helpful.

Another essay *frown* But I wish I could talk religion and politics at work! I have to vent here.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to joachim) posted 31-Oct-2002 9:03pm  

I'm not sure what you are trying to suggest. It seems that once again, you're focusing on the past, rather than the present.

I'm certainly aware of what's going on in the Third World. Calling this economic exploitation "racism" is a naive oversimplification of the situation. I seriously doubt that the answer to their troubles is "help" from people like us.

I'm completely baffled by your statement: "Ignoring it and just treating everyone the same is also a form of racism because it accepts the racism of the surrounding culture." This strikes me as completely unsupported conjecture. If you want me to understand your argument, you'll have to elaborate on this. I don't follow.

Canada is hardly "ethnically monotonous". I think you would be hard pressed to find a country that wasn't racist. On some levels, racism is part of the human condition. There is a inherent tendency (in general) for people to file information in little boxes. A limited experience, being the only thing they have to go on, becomes a stencil for future interactions. I think the real problem with racism is when people fail to recognise this function and make rash judgements. Following this with a narrow minded approach; never re-evaluating their first impressions...
joachim
(reply to Zang) posted 1-Nov-2002 11:37am  

I will attempt to elaborate on my statement. If you live in a society that treats some people badly because of their race, and if you do not treat people badly because of their race, you are not helping the problem. Because of this I would say you are in fact part of the problem, even though you have not personally done anything bad to anyone. This is the same issue of negligence vs. active harm that has been discussed in other surveys. I believe failing to help someone is a form of harm.
Glassa
(reply to joachim) posted 1-Nov-2002 1:45pm  

Well, my point was that if a black person wants to succeed in this country he or she can. I'm sure Oprah and Cosby have both experienced their share of racism, but they moved beyond it didn't let it hold them back.

What about the theory that some black people aren't motivated? I sometimes wonder if they would rather just cry racism if something doesn't go their way and have whatever they want given to them out of that fear.
I mean you have all these other races making progress, so why is it that black people aren't making the same progress? It's obvious that racism isn't as prominent if the other races are so successful. I'm wondering if this lack of success is brought on by the black people themselves.
Plus you also have the gangs. That's self-destruction at it's best and they're some of the first to cry racism, but who would want to hire a gang member (regardless of race)?

Oh, and then you have successful and powerful black people like Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, and Clarence Thomas who are called Uncle Toms and closet white's just because they're successful.
I just think a lot of it is self-imposed and too many people are too quick to blame racism. Especially when a black person becomes successful his own race turns it's back on him/her. That's racism toward yourself.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to joachim) posted 1-Nov-2002 2:07pm  

"if you do not treat people badly because of their race, you are not helping the problem."

You can't really mean that the way it sounds. *winking raspberry*

If someone says to me "I have a problem, help me." I will probably do what I can. I've spent years working with people who are mentally ill and/or have substance abuse issues. One of the things I've learned from that is that you can't help people unless:

1. They admit they have a problem.
2. They admit they need help.
3. They specifically ask you for your help.
4. They are willing to do most of the work themselves.

I know that these are completely different things, but I don't think it matters. If the above doesn't apply, you're not going to be any help.
mandy
posted 1-Nov-2002 2:37pm  

I think guilt sucks
Windahl
posted 3-Nov-2002 8:05am  

I hate it. I just can't tolerate their insolence.
With me it's nazi because of my German heritage.
It infuriates me because they don't know what their talking about.
btrswtbutterfly
posted 3-Nov-2002 5:20pm  

I think it's retarded. I mean, it was something someone else did. When you have nothing to do with it, why should someone be made at you for it? It racist.
starrpickle
posted 4-Nov-2002 1:23pm  

bunch of bull dung i don't even know my ancestry
computercutie79
posted 4-Nov-2002 5:18pm  

In my opinion we should all get over what is in the past. I know alot of things are not right but we need to forgive. Carpa Diem - seiz the day
joachim
(reply to Glassa) posted 4-Nov-2002 6:12pm  

Yes, black people certainly can succeed in America. And in fact, it seems to be getting more common, which I take as a good sign. I don't think it's happening frequently enough, though. And there's no question in my mind that black people are some of the most racist people in the country (at least to hear my black relatives talk). There is a feeling of victimization and it probably doesn't help anyone. But neither does it help anyone to ignore a real issue.
joachim
(reply to Zang) posted 4-Nov-2002 6:14pm  

Yeah, I guess there was an "only" missing in there somewhere. Oops! How do you help people who either don't know they have a problem or believe it's not possible that they can be helped? Is that impossible? I hope not. I think there are a lot of people with very little hope in the United States, and I think that's a shame. Their potential is not being used and that's everyone's loss, not just theirs. I think it's more true with african-americans than with other groups in the country. I wish it would change.
Zang Survey Central Subscriber
(reply to joachim) posted 4-Nov-2002 6:51pm  

I'll qualify my above statement a little. One thing you can do to help people outside of those stipulations, is by treating them with the same respect and common decency that you would treat anyone else. I suppose I failed to mention it because to me, that isn't "doing anything". I would just do that anyway. But I feel that a lot of the problems the people I've worked with have dealing with society in general, is that it seems that many people DON'T think that way.
wolfchik9
posted 5-Nov-2002 9:29pm  

Going too far... don't blame me for what my great, great, great, great-grandparents did.
TeddyMiller Survey Central Gold Subscriber
(reply to Glassa) posted 7-Nov-2002 4:43pm  

They have everything to do with each other; they're opposite sides of the same coin. If you shouldn't punish someone who's done nothing for something bad an ancestor did, then you shouldn't reward someone who's done nothing for something good an ancestor did. Wealth is a reward for whatever someone did to earn that wealth, the person who earned it is entitled to it, but that person's descendants? If they did none of the hard work to earn it themselves, why should they have any more right to it based solely on what their ancestor did than they have guilt because of things their ancestor did?
irish751
posted 10-Nov-2002 7:48am  

Taking responsibility for the actions of our ancestors is the right thing to do. I am not proud of the fact my ancestors owned slaves. It saddens me to know that this happened. For the most part, I am sure they were not treated in the manner a human being should.
jimrh68
posted 10-Nov-2002 12:52pm  

I believe it's idiotic.
No one is responsible for the actions of others including your ancesters.
Yet our crazy mixed up society believes that it's O.K. to blame someone just the same. One example is parents who get blamed for actions their kids made. Also in the military, the officers get blamed for those underneath them, etc.
Glassa
(reply to TeddyMiller) posted 10-Nov-2002 3:07pm  

Well, if the family of the deceased isn't entitled to benefit from the person's hard work who is?
Why should anyone else get something they had no part in earning? Who would you give the money/assets to if not the family of the deceased?

Who decides who gets what?
Why is it that you have this hatred for the wealthy?
Again, I think it's all about jealousy and greed.
You want what they have.
Lex
posted 18-Nov-2002 10:34am  

I think that perhaps people here are missing the point somewhat. Consider this scenario...

1 year ago, my (hypothetical) father robs the neigbours house. He dies soon after, and leaving the robbery proceeds to me. The crime is then discovered. Clearly I'm not guilty... BUT.. I have benefited from the proceeds of the crime. In this case, should I be made to return the stloen goods? It seems the obvious answer is yes. Clearly I'm not guilty, but I have benefited. The question might be better phrased as "How do you feel about accountability passed down.."

Tricky question, and that is why many countries laws have an expiry time for crimes, particularly as hard evidence about what actually happened is difficult to find years after the events.


zkatt
posted 18-Nov-2002 3:57pm  

I think we need to concentrate on the present and stop harboring the ill-will of the past.
Steven
posted 24-Nov-2002 11:00pm  

Simply put, ancestral baggage sucks! Yet it continues to this day and will be perpetuated into the future. It's just something you have to deal with on a personal level. Your example mentions historical privation. For most people I would venture to say that the guilt is more of a generational thing.
GanderPoke
posted 7-Dec-2002 11:17pm  

Very guilty - but it's easy to comment like I am doing after the event. I'm English/Scottish crossed, and a lot of our history ain't pretty. What really disgusts me is the suppression of other races and the destruction of their cultures. We destroyed things before we understood them. Just look at African history - if you don't know any African history, that's because people like my ancestors got rid of it.
cabinfever
posted 8-Feb-2006 7:01pm  

It's going way too far. If you yourself, or your parents, or kids were deported or enslaved, I could see some 'bad blood'... but from two or three hundred years ago? Get over it!! It is an unfortunate part of human history/evolution that this happens... learn from the mistakes and move forward.


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