| User | Comment |
|---|
LindaH    | | posted 18-Oct-2002 12:41pm |
The school board over-reacted, but the teacher still should have sold the knife to the parents of the kid, not the kid. (Common sense) |
| darkshadowsseeker | | posted 18-Oct-2002 12:43pm |
At minimum the principal and teacher should have gotten verbal reprimands IF and only IF the deal took place on school property. Otherwise, nothing should have been done to anybody. Even if it was done on school property nothing should have been done to the student because he had approval from the principal and teacher to do this. |
| mandy | | posted 18-Oct-2002 1:16pm |
This reeks of overreaction.
Christ! |
| kaleb777 | | posted 18-Oct-2002 1:22pm |
What, is it illegal for a person to sell a knife to a collector in the US? The fact that one is a student and the other a teacher is irrelevant. What if it was a car being sold? Cars kill people and are used to commit crime too. Why did the teacher even have to ask permission for anyway? This is a classic example of what happens in an overly litigious and consequently overly cautious society. It's more about avoiding negligence suits in the US now than personal freedom. The sad thing is Australia isn't far behind. What happened to common sense? |
| darkshadowsseeker | | (reply to kaleb777) posted 18-Oct-2002 1:36pm |
The problem is that too many schools have adopted Zero Tolerance policies with Zero Common Sense. All are treated the same no matter the age or circumstances. A good example of this is the case of a 6 year old first grader (this happened several years ago) who was originally charged with sexual harrassment for kissing a female classmate on the cheek. The charges were later dropped, but you can see how ridiculous it is to charge a young child with an adult offence. To see some other stories of how the American school system over reacts click on this link: http://overlawyered.com/topics/schools.html |
| Glassa | | posted 18-Oct-2002 1:53pm |
How silly. The teacher found out about his love for knives, had one and decided to sell it. Big frickin deal! Sounds like the school board has a stick up their rears. What a bunch of liberal freaks. |
| kaleb777 |
Maybe they should go back to teaching the basics instead of this lefty crap. I don't have kids, but I always get the feeling that school teachers are they type of people I would keep as far away from my kids as possible. Those wankers that charged the kid with sexual harrassment are just like the female teachers in Sweeden that want little boys to sit down to pee because they believe when a male stands up to pee they are demonstrating their dominance over women. As I said, these people should be kept away from anyone who might be influenced by their left-wing lunacy. |
| confetti | | posted 18-Oct-2002 3:14pm |
Oh, how unbelievably stupid. Granted, knowing how uptight people are right now in the United States about any associations between kids-weapons-schools, the teacher and the principal were pretty daft in allowing it to become an academic issue. However, preventive measures have their limit and contrary to what the school board seemed to think, not all problems can be resolved at the root. |
| romkey | | posted 18-Oct-2002 3:29pm |
as long as it's okay with the parents I think the school board should butt out. |
Enheduanna  | | posted 18-Oct-2002 3:48pm |
Is it legal in that state for a 15-year-old to buy a 15" hunting knife? |
| darkshadowsseeker | | (reply to kaleb777) posted 18-Oct-2002 4:31pm |
It's not always the teachers' fault, much of the time the ZT rules are made by administration. You can't have one-size-fits-all ZT rules. |
Iseult  | | posted 18-Oct-2002 4:35pm |
They should hang every fudgeen gosh darn bastard in the schoolboard because of their decision. It's nothing to do with them. He may be a teacher, but privately, he is nothing to the kid. |
| Dino | | posted 18-Oct-2002 5:55pm |
Vastly over-reacted. |
| spidertea | | posted 18-Oct-2002 7:19pm |
Intersting story. |
| cody | | posted 18-Oct-2002 7:20pm |
No problem. Was the exchange on school campus? Fudging liberal whackos. |
| FXDL2K | | posted 18-Oct-2002 7:58pm |
if the teacher is to lose the job then so should the principal. what was the principal thinking?you cant bring knives to school for any reason these days!!! duh!!! the teacher should have contacted the parents and set something up after hours in the home with the parents. |
| weepydebacho | | posted 18-Oct-2002 8:13pm |
I think the school board over reacted and nobody should be punished. It's not like the young man brought a knife to school and threatened people with it. |
| bcollins | | posted 18-Oct-2002 9:38pm |
As long as the knife wasn't on school property then nothing should be done and even then the student shouldn't be punished for something like this. He had the permission and knowledge of the principal, but both the principal and teacher should have used common sense and made certain that the deal was carried out privately. If the teacher had gone to the boy's home and sold him the knife (which it doesn't appear happened), then nothing would have probably happened. I doubt the school board has the power to suspend a student for what he does in the privacy of his home. |
| mikehunt696 | | posted 19-Oct-2002 12:46am |
The school board reaction is FUDGEED UP! I'm so sick and tired of these idiots going overboard with Zero Tolerance policies. Yes, we do need to keep the students safe in school, but there has to be a better way than the what these bozos are doing to the kids. Everytime you turn around some poor kid is getting suspended or expelled for some petty crap, not to mention the fact that they apply the same rules to all the kids no matter the age. You can't have the same policies for a kindergardener as you do a high schooler. We're talking apples and oranges here. In most cases it isn't the principal or teacher's fault because they don't set the policies, but the adminstration does. People who don't have to be a licensed teacher and know nothing about child psychology are making these rules. A friend of mine got suspended for 3 days because someone spotted a hunting knife in the bed of the pickup he drove to school that day. It was his dad's truck and his dad had been hunting the day before and accidentally left his hunting knife in the truck bed. My friend's dad went to the school board and tried to reason with them and was told no exceptions could be made. His son had brought a weapon to school (it never left the truck bed until the principal was told about it and took it to his office per administration rules) and had to be punished. The principal also tried to intervene because my friend was an honor roll student and had never been in trouble in school before. This still outrages me to this day even though it happened a couple of years ago. |
| dora | | posted 19-Oct-2002 4:14am |
Yeah that's overreaction.
Only I can't understand all this "those liberals" thing...sounds more like a fascist thing than a liberal thing.Oh,wait maybe I'm confusing liberals and libertarians,right?
|
| ROCKMAN | | posted 19-Oct-2002 8:47am |
It should have been done off school property! |
| kaleb777 |
What's ZT? |
| darkshadowsseeker | | (reply to kaleb777) posted 19-Oct-2002 1:34pm |
Zero Tolerance. |
| kaleb777 |
Oh, silly me. Zero tolerance is OK, it's zero common sense that I hate. People's age and knowledge of what they are doing should be taken into consideration. |
| LuridHope | | posted 19-Oct-2002 2:28pm |
The teacher should be held accountable alone. 15 year old boys will buy a knife off anybody! |
| darkshadowsseeker | | (reply to kaleb777) posted 19-Oct-2002 2:31pm |
Exactly. You do need Zero Tolerance in schools, but when a one-size-fits-all program is in place and a 6 year old is treated exactly like a 16 year old, then there are going to be problems. Check out the http://www.overlawyered.com link I gave earlier. Go to the Topics menu on the left and click on Overlawyered Schools. It has some fine examples of how ZT is being enacted in schools. Not just U.S. schools either, there is at least one for a U.K. school. |
| kaleb777 |
Yeah I saw that site yesterday. Unfortunately there are a bunch of stupid Aussie ones on there too. How are these judges so out of touch with reality? |
| darkshadowsseeker | | (reply to kaleb777) posted 19-Oct-2002 3:56pm |
I don't know. |
| Zang | | posted 19-Oct-2002 3:58pm |
It is hard to say without knowing more about the story. Some things just don't add up. Why was the principal even involved in the first place? Did any of this take place on school property? How did the school board find out?
I would say that if the knife was never on school property, and the boy's parents approved of the deal, it shouldn't really have anything to do with the school board.
Unless there is some serious aspects of this case which are not even hinted at in the above description, it certainly sounds like the school board overreacted in a big way. |
| Fireblitz87 | | posted 20-Oct-2002 1:59am |
The teacher must have trust in this student that he won't do anything stupid with the knife. And just because it is between a teacher and a student doesn't make it the school board's business, it should be between the kid, the teacher, and probably the kid's parents (just to confirm that he does collect them) |
| romkey | | posted 20-Oct-2002 9:44am |
I think there are a couple of issues here:
there's an issue of conflict of interest. A teacher shouldn't have a business relationship with a student. It's inappropriate for a teacher to be buying and selling items with students.
safety - it's potentially inappropriate (or illegal) for a 15 year old to own a 15" knife. It's also likely to be unacceptable or illegal to possess such a weapon on school grounds.
But, it seems that the involvement of the principal (or the parents) would negate both those issues. The school board is still overreacting. |
| Biggles | | posted 21-Oct-2002 2:46pm |
The student shouldn't have been expelled. He's 15, a minor and it can't be illegal to *buy* something like that, surely? Just to sell it. The teacher who sold it to him and the principal were pretty stupid but unless they've done something illegal they shouldn't be sacked.
More weapons in schools, just what the education system needs! |
| LindaH | | (reply to romkey) posted 21-Oct-2002 6:23pm |
How is it a conflict of interest for a teacher and student to buy and sell things. What if this had been a porcelain puppy? Would that have been inappropriate? |
| romkey | | (reply to LindaH) posted 21-Oct-2002 10:37pm |
yes, it would. they have a student-teacher relationship and adding any other relationship on top of that muddies things. |
| LindaH | | (reply to romkey) posted 21-Oct-2002 11:19pm |
How so? Can a boss sell a computer to an employee? I can see how a romantic relationship would muddy things (and in a bad way) but selling stuff? That doesn't seem like a big deal. |
| Steven | | posted 21-Oct-2002 11:21pm |
A moot question! You've provided little to no pertinent information. Were the parents aware of the knife collection? What are the laws regarding minors owning such weapons? Where was the transaction taking place? Etc., etc., etc. If the parents knew, the transaction was to take place off school grounds, and if state laws allow such a thing to occur, then who gives a fig? Political correctness can and does go to far. Both the teacher and the principal showed very little commonsense with regards to lethal weapons. |
| romkey | | (reply to LindaH) posted 22-Oct-2002 9:22am |
actually I think that a boss selling a computer to an employee is a conflict of interest as well. but particularly in school with children, who haven't got the experience working out relationships that adults do, I think teachers selling things to students is generally a bad idea. |
| joachim | | posted 22-Oct-2002 9:26am |
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| joachim | | posted 22-Oct-2002 9:29am |
It's hard to say. This page indicates that "selling an illegal weapon to a minor on school property or possessing an illegal weapon on school property" is illegal. But the question seems to be whether this particular weapon is itself illegal. Apparently these knives may be legally carried during hunting but not at other times. What you do on the drive home is unclear to me. The article also suggests that the transaction would have been unarguably legal had it taken place outside the school grounds. Given that fact, I would probably say "no harm, no foul". The school board should investigate, and maybe some punishment should be imposed, but probably not expulsion or firing. |
| LindaH | | (reply to romkey) posted 22-Oct-2002 10:58am |
I guess what I am trying to ask is: How does it hurt anything? If a kid is old enough to buy something at a store or garage sale, and old enough to judge quality and price, they should also be considered mature enough to buy from a teacher. I don't think it would hurt the teaching relationship at all. |
| romkey | | (reply to LindaH) posted 22-Oct-2002 11:25am |
but they already have a student-teacher relationship. Now the teacher is trying to get the student to buy this knife, or whatever else he's selling. The teacher and student already have a power relationship, because the teacher is in a position of authority over the student; they shouldn't have a business relationship as well.
dictionary.com defines 'conflict of interest' as 'A conflict between a person's private interests and public obligations'. You don't see how business relationships between students and teachers could lead to that? |
| LindaH | | (reply to romkey) posted 22-Oct-2002 11:32am |
No, I don't. If the teacher abused the power in some way, then he should get in trouble based on that. But I don't see how a business relationship in itself could lead to an abuse of power, as long as the teacher is honest. I don't see how it could create conflict. |
| romkey | | (reply to LindaH) posted 22-Oct-2002 5:02pm |
conflict of interest situations are all about honesty. You avoid them to avoid having to worry about whether someone is honest, or even subtley influenced by the situation. |
| LindaH | | (reply to romkey) posted 22-Oct-2002 8:11pm |
But if you knew and trusted a person enough to KNOW they are honest, then I see nothing wrong with trusting someone, even if it creates a 'conflict of interest' situation. When the sales are all done and over with, what's the teacher going to do, give the student a higher grade for buying something off him? |
| romkey | | (reply to LindaH) posted 22-Oct-2002 9:12pm |
possibly, sure. or the teacher might use the situation the classroom situation to talk about knives... and hey, look, I have this cool knife to sell. |
| Binkelicious | | posted 22-Oct-2002 10:24pm |
If the parents were involved and knew what the student was doing, and approved, that's the most important thing. Though with good reason, I think the board members over-reacted. I would really need to have more details on the situation to make a proper decision. Was this on school grounds? Did the parents know/ approve? |
| wolfchik9 | | posted 24-Oct-2002 4:24am |
I think this could have been handled another way. There are strict rules about weapons in school and it was not the principal's place to condone a weapon being brought on school grounds. I think there should be suspensions for sure, but the student should definitely not been expelled. The teacher knew better and should have made the sale after school hours at another location, preferrably the student's home. The principal should be punished the most though. He/She knew better and there's no way of knowing whether or not other knives have been brought into the school for the purpose of selling or showing. The principal is a moron. |
| PowerPigs | | posted 25-Oct-2002 4:14pm |
a knife. with a 15" blade. i think a 15 year old kid could use a thing like that. no harm there. |
| Maarten | | posted 28-Oct-2002 5:44am |
Since obviously the student asked permission to the principle he should go free. The teacher and the principle should be punished for selling a weapon to a minor (assuming it's illegal). |
| sunshine | | posted 31-Oct-2002 8:22pm |
Without knowing the full extents of the situation, like was the deal done on school grounds. If it was then I have no problem with what was done (since most schools have rules regarding weapons on the property.) If this deal was transacted off school grounds and said knife was not brought on the grounds then the school had no right to do what they did. |
| autumnlight |
Over-reaction. I'm sure the teacher used good judgment when selling the knife. If the principal and parents knew of the sale then it seems fine. |
