User	Comment
confetti	posted 7-Aug-2002 7:43am   Yes. Dreams to me are very symbolic and represent what I've been repressing in my subconscious.
justjulie	posted 7-Aug-2002 8:08am   absolutely....
romkey	posted 7-Aug-2002 8:37am   they usually mean that I shouldn't eat before I go to bed.
moonstone	posted 7-Aug-2002 9:41am   Yes, I think dreams can mean all sorts of different things. And, sometimes I've thought certain dreams I've had didn't mean a darn thing! It just depends.
Lahdee	posted 7-Aug-2002 10:35am   Sometimes
grmbrand	posted 7-Aug-2002 12:14pm   I'm not entirely convinced. I think of them as a mental housecleaning.
dora	posted 7-Aug-2002 1:00pm   Sure.
teatree	posted 7-Aug-2002 1:25pm   As I said in qualification, sometimes they do.
southernyankee	posted 7-Aug-2002 1:33pm   nope, sorry, I believe they don't mean crap.
darkshadowsseeker	posted 7-Aug-2002 2:09pm   Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
Biggles	posted 7-Aug-2002 2:30pm   Yes, I think they show what I've been thinking about a lot and what's running through my subconscious.
Andyroo	posted 7-Aug-2002 3:10pm   Yes M'aam...well....sometimes.
Dino	posted 7-Aug-2002 3:28pm   I don't really think about it. I believe they do - in that its your subconscious mind working things out and communicating with you. For example if you dream of a woman you know telling you something important then its not that woman that is giving you the message but an aspect of your personality (anima). A bit of a different theory than dream dictionaries as a Black Cat for example can mean different things to different people. On one side of the Atlantic its good luck and vice versa. So you can't have a dictionary when the mind has its own symbolism. Saying that though I don't think about my dreams in any great depth. I'd like to but I can't be bothered.
Matt	posted 7-Aug-2002 3:41pm   I've been worried and upset, my dreams have been reflections of that.
Zang	posted 7-Aug-2002 6:37pm   Of course they mean something. I think that has been well established scientifically for a hundred years anyway, and I understand it was the prevailing opinion in most cultures for millennia prior to that. To the best of my knowledge, dreams are very individual to the dreamer. They are the most prevalent form of communication between the subconscious mind and the conscious mind. I find that if I keep a dream journal (something I used to do years ago) I remember my dreams more readily. The subconscious picks up all of the information the senses send to the brain. The conscious mind tends to focus on specifics. Often we are aware of various things (group dynamics for example) subconsciously that we aren't conscious of. Our dreams can attempt to convey important information.
Galomorro	posted 7-Aug-2002 8:29pm   Yeah, I figure many of my dreams have to do with my desires and fears.
mandy	posted 7-Aug-2002 11:50pm   My dreams of late have been bizarre. I am working through so many different things right now in my life and my dreams are bazooooomy!
Amanda	posted 8-Aug-2002 1:01am   I believe that some of my dreams mean something, but some of them don't.
Jemmy	posted 8-Aug-2002 7:37am   I don't think they mean a lot, but they mean something.
anoddoblivion	posted 8-Aug-2002 12:17pm   I know dreams mean something. They mean you're in the deepest sleep one can be. But I've also had events on this earth come true that I wonder about, because they seem they've already happened. I come to the conclusion of dreams.
hunnybunnybaby	posted 8-Aug-2002 5:08pm   they mean jack crap!
mandy	posted 8-Aug-2002 6:49pm   they mean jack crap!
Enheduanna	posted 9-Aug-2002 1:47pm   Sometimes I think they mean something, but just in the sense of my mind trying to tell me something about what's going on in my life.
Kristal_Rose	posted 9-Aug-2002 1:52pm   Plenty. Last night was a bit too interpret though. I was at some college festival with folks I knew 15 years ago. There were so many interesting people I wanted to form volunteer service agencies with, but I couldn't because I was on acid (i think hundreds of us were), my head had been partially shaved, and my pants were stolen. The strangers were ambivalent 'here, play with a giantparty favor crystal lamp with red light' (while my friend has a giant (plastic) crystal umbrella which plays the doors 'light my fire'). I woke up when two friends were gleefully aiming power lawn mowers at me in the park. I somewhat intentionally exhaustedly let one run me over and nick my finger so I could cry and have an excuse to go back to the house which was full of radio interviewers visiting from different countries (and others had already eaten my share of the piroshki they brought). I guess I can relate it to various on lately like a bad radio interview and my inability to keep up with service projects. Little details like the red chandalier/shade lamp and the 'light my fire' umbrella disturb me most in retrospect.
kaleb777	posted 9-Aug-2002 6:13pm   No. Dreams are the subconcious ramblings of an active mind that has nothing else to do.
NthenSome	posted 9-Aug-2002 11:31pm   Means one whole hell of a lot, thanks.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to NthenSome) posted 10-Aug-2002 12:15am   So what the heck's up, have you ditched me?
juliw	posted 10-Aug-2002 1:18pm   yeah, sometimes
NthenSome	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 10-Aug-2002 1:44pm   No! (Hey, Grmbrand posted those pictures you sent for us! Under NthenSome...) No I haven't ditched ya! Last week was catch up time. Have I told you how meeting-happy the people I work with are? After a week's vacation, I got bombarded the second I walked into the place and it continued until 10:30 last night! So, what's up with you?
Kristal_Rose	(reply to NthenSome) posted 10-Aug-2002 9:18pm   cool. i'm just slowly plugging away at projects. nothing much. missed three appointments/meeting this last week. went to the beach yesterday finally. flustered. even when I run so low on energy that I don't think I'll make it up till 10pm, I get a wave of energy that keeps me up all night and ruins my days.
spidertea	posted 11-Aug-2002 1:52am   I usually dream about the things I am trying to mentally avoid. So, yes- they mean "Pay attention to this!"
dora	(reply to kaleb777) posted 11-Aug-2002 6:01pm   So you think your subconscious doesn't mean nothing at all?
kaleb777	(reply to dora) posted 13-Aug-2002 4:59am   A few days ago I dreamt of shaving my right leg only and I couldn't get it right. The evening before I watched a comedy show where a woman was looking for a new razor to shave her legs because she had cut her legs up with a blunt one. I dream of situations at work. Dreams are just the active mind subconciously thinking of things I have seen or done. They don't mean a thing.
dora	(reply to kaleb777) posted 13-Aug-2002 5:22am   Yes,but I guess that what your mind selects means something.I don't think is totally at random.Also your dreams look somewhat boring compared to mine...sure is all linked to what happens in your real life,but not in a simple manner as you state.Maybe I elaborate more than you,I am a writer so for me subconscious is something very important,don't mean a thing isn't really a good definition.That you take dreams from reality,it's true,but something you notice fundamental things only when you are dreaming that you don't think about when you are not. Anyway I dream TV things before they show them,not after.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 13-Aug-2002 4:54pm   She's stepping in to say what I would have said, including the part about about dreams preceding the tv.
kaleb777	(reply to dora) posted 13-Aug-2002 5:06pm   Ah huh.
kaleb777	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 13-Aug-2002 5:11pm   If you could honestly say that you dreamt something like the winner of Big Brother or Survivor I might believe you dream Tv before it happens, but come on, how much Tv is based on reality and how many channels do you have to go through before you find what looks a little like you dreamt of. I really think you read much, much more into what isn't all that amazing. Coincidence doesn't mean premonition.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 13-Aug-2002 6:29pm   I mean things like I have a vision of a lion riding on a white light time-travel sphere, and play guitar for a guest the first song I find on the radio, and have us wear magenta hibiscus which my yard is full of to an aloha festival, wearing a yellow and red dress. When I get home that night, a commercial I've never seen plays on tv with a lion on a white sphere and that rare song in the background. I see the same tv commercial a day later, but that's it, after that, my mind, and therefore my experience has moved on. and, I wake up the next morning and one hibiscus blooms amongst all those magenta ones in the yellow and red I wore to the ho'olaule'a. There was a time during my early years of awakening where I knew down to the smallest detail everything that was about to happen, even word for word what some foreigner would say in a tongue I don't understand. It's what happens when you merge with our creator. I stopped doing it, because it destroys the sensation of having any reality to react to. When I bid on something on eBay, I do know if I will win, and how much the final bid will be. I slackened my morals a touch and applied to be an office assistant for a psychic who counsels US presidents. Her husband is a multi-million dollar real-estate investor. Generally, spiritual types frown on this sort of activity, and indeed, ones ability/vision is usually in proportion to their detachment from worldy events. I didn't know that commercial or flower would appear though, it's just typical that my thoughts will manifest in some form. I do at times plan such things to happen though, for instance, when I visit my kids in Alaska, I want to build a toboggan run, so I will that the tempurature freakily raise 50 degrees (like 40ºf (above freezing)) the day after I arrive so all the digging and forming can happen, then freeze to a cozy 20º for the rest of my trip, with one day of -60º on my last day so I can say I've experienced that too. I use the same thing on my shopping trips. I suddenly have a need for an uncommon programmable calculator, so I 'decide' that one will appear dirt cheap when I visit the thrift store the next day. My house is furnished quite well considering I'm living on what is considered a third of a survival income for LA. I only have a few channels, but I pull in what I want. If I want to watch a James Bond festival, Peter Pan, or Star Wars, it's granted to me. For the most part, there's not even a point changing channels, what ever comes on will be a sort of metaphor, if nothing else, for what I'm dreaming at the moment. When I talk to people on the phone, the television becomes a visual presentation of our conversation. I talk to other people too who can use this reality like a chalkboard. I might say, 'yeah, I used to work on these exotic cars called Citroens.' and he'd say 'Oh, you mean like that one.' and one would suddenly appear around the corner. In fact, just a couple days ago, I went on to eBay wondering where I could still find a Citroen, and just as the Cit page loaded, on the radio came a vintner from upstate discussing wines. He was our Cit shops top customer 12 years ago. Am I reading too much into this? This is my general constant reality; Totally virtual. If you wish to believe secret handshakes make the world go round, you go right ahead.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 13-Aug-2002 6:34pm   Oh, I was in the waiting room at the doctor today, and the tv was boring so I just relaxed and surveyed the scenery, mhich for me, is neighboring minds. This was the first time anyone ever complained, they turned to me and said disapprovingly 'Hey, your in my mind and I don't even know you from jack. Cut it out.' I discovered I don't know how to cut it out. I've never had to restrain myself before.
kaleb777	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 14-Aug-2002 4:53pm   i really think you must have seen that commercial somewhere, even in a shopfront that you walked past. I believe you think you are getting all the premonitions and special happenings but I don't believe they happen for any reason other than coincidence and that you make yourself believe these things are meant for you because you want them to be. You told me once you were struggling financially. Why don't you 'decide' to get an awesome job that you enjoy and that lets you help people while paying you top dollar? My belief that secret handshakes make the world go round is based on fact. painting of US presidents dressed in Masonic regalia. The Yale club. Masonic architecture and symbolism everywhere - much more represented than any other religion, even Catholicism with it's 650 million followers. My belief that the rich and powerful are controlling what happens in this world is very rational, more rational than believing the rich and powerful don't have agendas other than what they tell us through their media, and more rational than believing the radio is talking to you personally and that the weather varies 100 Degrees F just to make your holiday really really good.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 14-Aug-2002 6:56pm   I still struggle financially. We've gone over many of the job diffculties I go through. On the positive side, I have been able to reach many famous people on the phone to deliver my ideas. On the negative side, I seem to have some sort of money curse. When ever it looks like I'm making money, chances are a sequences of misfortunes are a day away to drain my savings. The other thing is is it's so rare I can stick to anything and I work so slowly. Untirl a year ago I was spending an hour or two a day establishing my list of priorities, then spending the entire day distracted on projects that weren't on my list. These days, I spend less time on the list. Lately I spend less time making my list, because it's not to hard to remember that my viewmaster business, sending the kids birthdays presents (their birthday was a couple months ago), and working on the car are the things I should be working on. I just spent hours writing down a dream of an intense David Lynch like movie I dreamt last night. Several times a week I get some new exciting idea I could spend the next couple years working on. Last week it was the infinite ratio automatic bicycle transmission, the week before I halfway made a prototype for my self-flipping hourglass. Yesterday I went back to restoring my car. Who knows what I will work on tomorrow. You can't imagine how much time I waste just doing things like spending all afternoon getting ready to go somewhere, then change my mind just as I'm leaving the door. The point is, there are few jobs where I'm likely to get anything in particular done. The citroen garage and the united way were great for a dozen years because both of them were 'just do things' (nothing in particular) sort of jobs. The whole city of Fairbanks could attest to the 50º raise and 100º plummet corresponding with my air ticket arrival and departure (no exaggerations at all there). You'll have to take my word that I explicitly planned it and it being granted was more than coincidence. To get, and remain in well paid employment for what I do would involve 'willing' explicit people to fit my script, which is something I usually only do in an emergency for their own benefit. My daughter knows just what I'm capable of (she's capable of a lot too), and I've had to spend a lot time explaining to her why it's not right to take personal advantage of it. Lately it's almost been too depressing to wake up since the news reminds me of the years preceeding wwII, and it's too overwhelming to keep pace with, sending out prayers to counteract it all. I consider anything physical, visible, or vocal that I do a hobby in respect to that work. I'm spending day after day learning what's going on and praying the existence of senate bills and such to counter it, all though these things tend to get screwed up or loopholed somehow (like living in the original 'bedazzled' movie) and require correcting again. I'm to busy working to appear like I'm working and get paid for it. For what it's worth, after I satisfy my sense of accomplishment by entering my viewmaster holdings into my new inventory database, I plan to send of an application to my primary radio station which is looking for a web master. I don't deny that rich and powerful are making things happening, but I am claiming that they are pawns in a higher script beings are fighting out. btw, I'm constantly letting you in on various supernatural understandings and techniques that my workgroup goes on about being irresponsible to let novices know about. I guess, your disbelief is so strong, I don't consider you a risk. They would keep secret things like how to move prana through your body, recognise the different varieties, and use it in a cosmological feedback context. As much as I complain, my life is far more bearable than it was when I was making $5k a month instead of $800.
kaleb777	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 15-Aug-2002 4:13pm   Do you think organisations that have secrets that are unsuitable for novices do that because a novice could see right through what they claim? Many organisations or religions claim that novices are not ready for what converts know to be fact. The truth is that novices haven't been conditioned to believe what they are taught is fact. Your inability to concentrate on tasks enough to complete them in the time most people would sounds a little like depression. You might be procrastinating when you take on more than one thing and don't finish anything. I know when I have an assignment for Uni I need to do I tend to suddenly find many little jobs that need to be done. They don't need to be done right away, but they are a distraction from what I really need to be doing. Do you think you're depressed?
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 16-Aug-2002 4:35am   Although it's certainly true that ground level novices aren't even going to believe such stuff in the first place, just as a person from the rennaissance might have a hard time believing in electricity, let alone radio communications or computer chips. But your notion is still hilariously absurd. It's more like not giving fusion theory to some fresh third world country in recent turmoil, or giving a kid a gun. Millions of people believe in prana. For experienced meditators, it's a physical experience just like the experience of heat or electricity touching your skin. The difference is it can be nurtured, trained, manipulated, and used for a vast quantity of extra-personal as well as internal experiences. Most faiths won't do more than make mention of it, let alone suggest things it can be used for though. I am clinically labeled with depression. Yesterday I committed myself to that software project I mentioned. As is typical, when I'm adamant about something in particular, I spent a dozen straight hours struggling to create something I ended up deleting. To use a metaphor, it was a bit like trying to add two numbers on a calculator, and I can see I'm getting the wrong result. I'll do some testing with small handwritten numbers and find the calculator doesn't concur. I'll replace the battery with an unknown battery. I'll get out the voltmeter and test the voltage, I'll try polish notion key sequences. I'll look up the battery specs on the net. I'll try a battery with a lower voltage, a higher voltage, I'll research the wiring diagrahm and start testing the circuit, I'll start banging it around, drying it out with a hair-dryer in case there's moisture, it goes on and on while spirit is telling me to let it go. When I finally surrender, I then notice that the paint on the keys is a bit scratchy, and it turns out I've been using the division key instead of the + key. If it were someone else asking for help, I probably would have realised instantly that they were using the wrong key. and to top it off, days later I will be running into the downloaded wiring diagrahms and such and waste time trying to figure out if I might ever need them, where to file them, etc., and that will lead to realising my html pages are missing critical photos so I go back to download those, and there I run into wiring diagrahms for the same stereo and guitar I have, so I might as well download those while I'm at it. {and all this was to add up two numbers} My chances of letting go and hearing the numeric result I was looking for on the radio are nearly as good as those using my rational mind and self-discipline to force an expected result. Unfortunately that latter rational mind is what I lean on when I 'have' to do something rather than live in blissful detachment from outcomes. That indeed puts me on a wavelength perpendicular to most hiring protocols. By the end of my workday yesterday I was nearly ready to put my fists through my monitor. I lost my gift for playing guitar which is solely a product of my meditation. Fortunately tonight it came back to me, and I've been playing along to a wide variety of rare records I found at the thrift store today. Unfortunately, just like that 'told you so' metaphor which I was saving up for you since last night, when I got home today, my record player was playing in slow motion. I was considering all the activies I'd dreamed up, but compromised by playing the gypsy lps at 45 rpm, building up the pinion with some tape for the 45's, and adjusting my comprehension for the 33's. It's looking like I'll have to get a new turntable. I hate to do so since this one is so cool, and I've even cleanly upholtered the base surface and platters in zebra velour.
kaleb777	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 16-Aug-2002 4:53pm   How is my notion absurd? Do you think people who belong to cults that routinely abuse children or practice polygamy walked in the door asking "Is this the child abuse religion?" No, they are coditioned to belive that what they are doing is correct over time. A novice would look at horror at what most religions do, that's why the secrets of religions are kept from novices. I don't think that idea is absurd at all. Can't you even admit that not all religions can be correct, and that some have "secrets" they keep from outsiders and novices because the leaders know what they are doing is right? Do you think a novice joining that SanDiego cult would have castrated himself, put on his nike sneakers and a black cape, and then killed himself on the first day he joined? It takes conditioning to make people accept that what they are being told is righteous or necessary for their salvation is rational and normal. Outsiders can see that what is being taught it dangerous garbage that is probably illegal, that's why they are not shown the secrets. If any religion had the truth, the real answers and any real power, they wouldn't need to keep it secret. Jesus kept no secrets. He did everything out in the open. He didn't have to hide what he said he was because he could prove it, and he was killed for it. What good are you doing in your "religion" if you have to hide what you consider to be real power. What good is your power doing? On the depression thing, get a single goal and work on that alone until you achieve it. You need to focus. Perhaps you should avoid SC for a few days while you get things done.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 16-Aug-2002 8:39pm   I can imagine a group not wishing to hand out things they expect will be understood in a way by strangers other than how they interpret it with time. I also think people don't walk into a church asking is this the never smile, have no parties, and flog yourself church. When I meant absurd, I meant absurd that they would cover up something in fear that people would see it as meaningless. hmm.. this is a shade of meaning difficult to explain. Suppose the advanced folk learn to fly, they might not want people who would crash into things or misuse the gift for military purpose learning to fly; What I was meant was absurd (and perhaps you never meant this in the first place) was the notion of them keeping flying a secret from novices, and telling it to initiates, even though the actual secret is that the advanced initiates actually don't know how to fly. Whethar an organisation reveals all instantly or dispenses with discretion, I think generally the advanced folk of a faith believe and practice the functions they eventually teach. I can't imagine spiritual groups trying to convince their adherants of things they don't believe themselves. On the other hand, Christian churches can start people off with literal morality lessons from the bible before graduating them to more mystical interpretations of the same material, and hinduism can start people off with a pantheon before getting down to a monistic concept of god. I don't think any of the clergy attempts to deceive though. The masses necessarily arrive with a physical understanding of society and the clergy will use the physical counterpart of their metaphors until their flock can aspire to the more abstract understandings of creation. You teach people where they're at. When I see some non-spiritual person here having a relationship problem, I won't offer them (too many) suggestions in the form of a spiritual understanding, but offer them a psychological understanding instead. It's not deceit that I don't mention what I think is really going on, it's just that I recognise what level they perceive and act on, and know only advice offered in that context will have any affect. You here are my exception. I dump the full basket on you, knowing you don't believe but a rock in the fruit basket. I think it helps keep me on my toes to have to explain things in a thesis-like fashion where even the context can not be assumed. In comments elsewhere a person can say something like 'you're asking for trouble doing that' and a whole context of karmic substrate, social passion patterns, etc is already presumed between the speakers to exist. Oh, the whole seed example I offered for this conversation about secrecy was more like 'we gradually teach our right and responsible rules and techniques for flying; and some OTHER damn irresponsible organisation is teaching just anyone off the street how to fly. We better get ready to clean fallen bodies off the streets'. and you're right if you see some 'holier than thou' attitude going on; But then not handing nuclear fusion secrets to terrorists or guns to children is a 'holier than thou' attitude too.My own philosophy has been a bit more like 'Hey, gods ultimately running the whole show here anyhow', and 'Hey, Whatever I dispense to others, by the time they figure it out, I'll be a plateau above them anyway'. I have taken risks passing on information to others. I wouldn't want someone with a grudge steering events, but when I take the risk to teach them how to steer events in their life, they stop having grudges anyhow.
kaleb777	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 17-Aug-2002 1:58pm   Don't you think that if a religion really held the gift of the power of flight they would want to share it and at least tell people they have that gift, even if the method used is kept for when the novice or outsider is truly ready. And who are religious people to decide when an individual is ready for truth. I know that religions have no more pwer than an AA meeting. All they do is offer support to people who cannot handle life without this backup system. If religions had any power they would be using it, and if the power relied on personal worthiness there would be no need to hide it because only those who are truly ready, or worthy, would be able to use the power. Religions do hide their secrets because outsiders can see the truth more clearly. It's like the levels of Masonry. With each level rise you learn more of the lie. It's conditioning ypu to accept the awful truth. Do you ever stop to think that some of those outsiders and people who would be novices have progressed much further than you have? They may have been to the heights of your particular belief or any other and found that there is no truth in it at all, or found that it doesn't work for them. You shouldn't always assume that beliefs such as mine are less enlightened. Your example with nuclear secrets is not comparable since nuclear secrets can be used to create a weapon that has been proven to exist, and has already killed people. There is physical evidence and there are physical laws which suggest it is wrong to openly discuss the secrets of nuclear weaponry (incidently, the secret involves the intensity of the Earth energy grid that Tesla was working on and that was squashed by whoever). When it comes to spiritual beliefs, I would like to see one PROVEN incident where a person caused harm to another person by spiritual means alone, not including incidences where the belief in the hex, tapu or voodoo caused the reciever to suffer a heart attack or whatever. Although nuclear secrets prevent people from creating weapons, everyone still knows these weapons exist. Religious secrecy protects only heresay. It's all based on faith, where nuclear reactions are fact.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 17-Aug-2002 8:52pm   Ok, this was weird, I was suddenly switched to a reply you made about html, although the comment I'm about to paste in now still remained. "That is what religions do. Take the catholics for example; they put the fear of satanic risk into anyone who might delve into occurt phenomenon, then make saints of those who have benificent success with the supernatural capacities, like manifesting their form as an apparition in front of a fleet of jet-fighters, telling them to turn back. Unfortunately I've discovered that worthiness is not necessarily a prerequisite for supernatural capacities. I've met many people who have incredible powers but their alignment is rather neutral, like angels as diverse as humanity. I've made mistakes, and so has jesus. I have met people who once delved into supernatural experience, then came back. I myself am back from some pretty intense realms, but not all the way back, more of a bridge between realms. As I've said before, you can't simultaneously experience and create (or at least I can't). Mortal coils are not some mistake. For some of us they are a more conscious choice though. I said nuclear fusion, not weapons, and so one could argue that it is wrong to keep the technology of free energy from people. Spiritual capacities are neutral in alignment, and apparently you can see (metaphorically) that one might use discretion indispensing it if it could be used for destruction. In the comment I made a moment ago, I suggest (not for the first time) how the less enlightened stance of abhinavesa may in ways be the nature of the salvation of creation. In general, the spiritual fruits of individuals and groups are things only seen by spiritual perceivers. Such types would realise the connection between the rise of Kali cults, and increased destruction on the planet, or vast crowds celebrating a harmonic convegence of the planets, and increased telepathy amongst society." ok, continuing where i left off.. Why do you think that if YOU can't see it, it doesn't exist? Few see electricity, but we've been trained to recognise how it flows through cords and such to explain what happens when we turn on a lamp. If you transported some jungle savage into our realm, it might take them years to believe in electricity, after all, they don't see any electricity, and you don't have any proof it exists either. You have instead a vast complex understanding by which you can infer it's presence. Realms of the occult and supernatural are no different, we see our our bulbs light with our electricity. It all falls into our pattern of pattern and understanding as does the electrical model you show the savage. The difference here between us and the savage metaphor, is that the savage doesn't have any explanation. I see your explanation and mine occurring as parallel valid realms of explanation.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 17-Aug-2002 8:59pm   I might add that you are willing to believe that masonic conspiracies exist (albeit, not in some fashion that challenges your notions of cosmology and physics), and yet you are operating entirely from inferences, like that electricity, you have never seen any secret meetings, and yet all the appearnces gel to you as implying some hidden cause and effect.
kaleb777	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 18-Aug-2002 6:22am   Unlike showing a savage an electrical appliance where it is possible for most people to explain what electricity is, how it is generated and transported, religious beliefs are based entirely on faith. If you question religion you get told you have no faith. I asked a religious person at work how she could tell that her God was real. I said that I could worshop a potato, and no matter what happens to me I could attribute it to the potato. If something good happens it's the potato being benevolent. If something bad happens the potato is testing my resolve and faith. After an hour of probing she finally admitted that she could never prove that what happened to her was from God or that things just happened and she attributed them to God. I asked her how she could believe in something like that, and she said it all boils down to faith. Faith is required because you can't prove that what you believe is true. I don't like having to rely on faith because I can never know for sure that I am on the right track. Facts are truths that no one can argue with or doubt. I can show a savage all about electricity and they can know 100% that what I'm showing them is truth. Religion can't do that. That's the difference. You can't compare electricity to religion.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 18-Aug-2002 9:04am   I haven't been trying to explain faith based religion to you. Eastern philosophies, new age, christian/religious science, buddhism, scientology, occult orders are not primarily faith based as western religions are. They require faith to get started just as the savage must have the faith necessary to be willing to consider the notion of electricity and eventually learn about things like electomagnets, generators, heating elements, transistorised amplifiers, etc. Faith for me is something that happens during lulls, just like you have faith that your appliances will work when you get home though you haven't tested your electricity today. People who live their religious lives by faith alone amaze me as much as they amaze you. I've generally only asked you to make scientific observation of things not accounted for in newtonian science, although I will grant they are observations of a cause and effect system of laws with causes as subtle as faith. When I have guests over I don't leave much guesswork, I'll point out moment by moment what's going on. Sometimes I'll even say 'The three of us are going to have a conversation: you, me, and the radio.' Again though, these are people ready to make that jump who have already experienced much other spiritual stuff. {I can envision you think now - 'You have some psychology based brainwashing technique that makes them think the radio is talking with the two of you.'} So, would you put me up as your guest for a week or two if I appeared in Australia and was willing to show you these things? I saw an excellent australian film last night called Oscar and Lucinda about a pastor and gal who owned a glass works who were both compulsive gamblers in the Edwardian era (he wins much and gives most of it to charity). She comes to confession and he goes on about 'gambling is not a sin, the very religious life of man is a gamble he stakes entire life upon. It is the most divine.'They proceed to gamble (almost courting) and the ship starts to roll in a sudden squall where he says 'Oh no, I have blasphemed, I have gambled for pleasure.' Anyhow, it got me thinking even earlier how you and other australians might have quite a strong 'faith' based religious background going there. Then there's the tree soul thing. Tha must come from the aborigines. It's another reason I enjoy the more mystical films that come out of australia, like there's some magical presence in simply the being of nature. The laws of cause and effect are on a spectrum between faith in science and spirit. If we were both based heavily in the spiritual understanding, to the extent of forgetting the scientific understanding, then the electricity would be a moot point. If we wanted music, the neighbors would crank some tunes, if we wanted the lights off, bulbs might burn out, cats jump on the light switch, electricians turn the building power off, why there could even be a black-out. (I'm rarely so entirely there, but the point is that that 100% scientific cause and effect, 0% visible spiritual cause and effect can shift to 100% in the other direction) Proving there was electricity would be irrelevant. Most of my appliances are half burned out. I do constantly have to employ mind over matter to keep them going. I even have to do the same quite frequently to get ink to flow from pens. I try the scientific method asking for advice at the office supply store on pens that are sure not to fail, but they still do, and I'm back to mind over matter methods. It's definitely been a mixed blessing. I was accused on a radio talk show a couple weeks ago of being possessed, not for the first time (even here at SC). There are those who believe in my experiences but don't think they are a good thing. My mom didn't believe me my first few years because she didn't believe spiritual life could involve such struggle. Eventually I sort of threatened her with the 'you, me, and the radio are going to have a talk' thing, and after that I was able to start pointing things out to her, like how I could stop the rain just long enough to visit my favorite beach and make it back in the house dry. People who know me are often awed or freaked out. I barraged my girlfriend with that sort of thing. She wanted a tub, so the next night at a going away party next door to her, the neighbors offered her out of the blue a victorian tub they were using as a beer cooler. It's in my garden now, I'd been wanting such a tub for my garden for years, so when she moved a few months later, she gave it to me. They run around a months income for me. As you can see, I live humbly, but not entirely without assistance to myself. You might also notice the karma in there. Although I wanted a victorian tub, I would not ask that one be granted to me. It's the things I wish upon others that are generally granted to me.
kaleb777	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 18-Aug-2002 4:39pm   My belief that trees have souls comes from earlier than the Aborigines. My culture, that of Europe, is just as long if not longer since humans were supposed to have come out of Africa, and Europe is really just out of Africa. If you know anything of Aboriginal beliefs they seem to revolve around which giant animals died in order to create a certain mountain range etc. They say they believe they belong to the land while westerners tend to think the reverse, but if you ever saw an Aboriginal community you would have no doubt that they have no respect for the land at all. They were hunter gatherers after all, and historically moved on once they had depleted a place of food. When they remain in one place you can truly see how they treat the Earth. They are still fouling it, olly they now don't move on. They also used to say that humans fighting over land is like two fleas fighting over the dog, but they are always first in line to claim a stake in the revenue gained from mining of minerals they knew nothing of before Europeans came here. I believe the two largest religions in Australian are Catholic and Anglican (Church of England), then there is every other religion you can name. There are Mormon temples, Russian and Greek orthodox churches, Mosques, Synagogues, Taoist temples, Bhuddist and Hindu and every Christian denomination all within a short drive from my home. Pagan and new age communities are generally further outside the cities, and I've said before, they are the greatest receivers of social security benefits of any group. I think that says something about the type of people they are. You know that a pen might not work when you first pick it up. Often it is the warmth of a hand that gets the ink flowing again. I'm guessing you hold the pen when you are doing your mind over matter thingy. When you desire for the rain to stop when you go to the beach I wonder if there isn't a person like you who needs rain to keep their flowers alive while they are away who will come home to dead flowers. But if they are anything like you they will see it as a sign to plant a more hardy, perhaps drought tolerant Australian plant. While we're talking of rain, and since you believe you have power over the weather, I wonder if you could grant south east Queensland a decent downpour. We haven't had rain for nearly 5 months. Only my Australian plants are thriving. Some small trees have died, the rest are dumping their leaves. The lawn now has patches of dust where grass once grew and the reservoirs are at all time lows. We cannot water, but all of my shower and sink water goes on the garden which is the only way I have kept some young trees alive. See what you can do. I'll let you know what happens.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 19-Aug-2002 5:03am   You're only seeing half (2/4ths?) of the equation (but that's a start.) In a sense, I have much less power because i can't go against the collective will of god. The other half of that equation is that god has figured that the plants also need a couple hours sunshine that afternoon, and while at it, gives me the notion of taking a sunny walk to the beach in the middle of that rainy week, just at the right time for me to have that sun 'I' wanted. When I said there is no truly real physical world or time, there is also no 'me'; I too am part of that imagination of god. god however creates us something called the ego which believes itself to be making decisions, and doing the doing, whethar that ego resides in the mundane or the supernatural. The fact is howewer is that god is the only thing really doing anything, and our egos are just along for the ride taking all the credit. This is one significant reason why religions encourage abolishing the ego, to find that we too are merely self-delusion. At times I touch base with my ego being self-delusion and transcend it, but for the most part, self-delusion is our gift from god which allows us the 'I am' experience, as opposed to simply being which god does. The part I don't get about dualism.. if god is not currently involved in creation, does that put him as some nearly physical entity floating out in space creating galaxies while abandoning others, or possibly in another dimension, pushing matter into ours, and either way, isn't it all still made of god? If matter is something different from any conscious activity of god, but still made of god, does that make god some giant universe creature with a bunch of non-conscious organs doing their proscribed functions like becoming black-holes or going supernova while the brain part of it resides in Sirius or something. You know, I get the idea that because I made polarised arguments in one direction, you've been making such in the other direction. You drop hints that you do have a belief in some subtle underworld. I get the feeling for instance that although you don't believe god is intervening, that there might be some risk in satanic practices beyond destructive psychology and political conspiracy. I get the feeling that although your attempts at faith have let you down, you are more inclined to a natural sense of faith in something you can't describe than even I am. That in a sense though preposterous to you idea of science, it is I who am limited to living within my known and science, as vast wild and complex as it is. With all my heart, I'll do my best on the rain thing. and thank you for your inadvertant part on reminding me how despeartely my own garden needs watering. Oh, while taking a bath a few days ago, it occurred to me that if I were to make my own home, there would be a bathtub beneath the bathtub to store water for use in the toilet and yard. No one does that in the US, except in motor homes. Do they do that there, or did you get creative and modify your drainage somehow, possibly against codes (a gray water yard system wouldn't be legal here, I don't think). Last night I was thinking to tell you about the first book (and only?) book which ever made me cry as a teen. It was 'the Man who fell to Earth'. His planet was dying from lack of water, so he came to earth, armed with many technical concepts to patent into a wealthy corporation capable of building a space ship. In the end though he was too late to save his family and simply became a shallow hedonistic alcoholic with his earth floozy. My life feels like that at times. I've noticed we seem to be gravitating toward a common wavelength lately. don't know if you've noticed or not.
kaleb777	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 19-Aug-2002 10:18am   I do believe in a scientific logical God that is good and somewhere feels for us although for whatever reason he does not seem to intervene in our lives, or at least mine. I do believe there is evil, and I am wary of people who muck around with that stuff for their own reasons, whether it be to impress others or whatever. I believe things are more matter of fact though, like there is certain things which are there. I have tried to communicate with the good, and felt or received nothing. Having said that, I would never try to communicate with the evil, because I feel certain I would get an answer. Most people in cities have all of their water waste go to the sewers, although many of the cities around where I live are now calling for people to install rainwater tanks for use as garden water, car washing water or toilet water. Officially people aren't supposed to use untreated grey water but cities ignor the practice because it saves them building more dams. Large institutions like universities sometime treat their own grey water on site for use in gardens. A new city built not far from me have 2 water supplies, one for inside drinking use and one for yard use only which is entirely recycled. Some people on the outskirts of the metro area are entirely on rainwater with huge concrete tanks. Some people have had to buy tanker loads of water due to the drought. Others are storing their shower water to use as toilet flushing. You could always simply install your own gray water system. It would be hard to tell you had one. I lived in the inner suburbs a few years ago and although my shower and dishwater went to the sewer, I ran a pipe out of the laundry window that I moved to a different bush or tree every time I did a wash. I doubt anyone would object to that, unless you're washing crapty baby nappies. There is a plan to pipe the treated waste water of Brisbane (1.6 million people) westwards to the fruit and vegetable growing region nearby. It looks like the drought might make this plan a priority.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to kaleb777) posted 19-Aug-2002 9:16pm   You're probably right on getting an answer. You remind me of the plight of Job or Jonah. Wow, I've been thinking to propose such a dual water supply system, if not mere dual home sewage systems. I once had a rainwater runoff collection system with drums of water for later garden use.
pterodactyl	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 29-Aug-2002 1:33am   Not to add to your list of activities, but -- it just occured to me that a good occupation for you would be as a writer of fortune cookie fortunes.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to pterodactyl) posted 29-Aug-2002 5:42am   That's funny, but what exactly makes you say that?
dora	posted 29-Aug-2002 10:39am   Last night I dreamed I had an astroship.
pterodactyl	(reply to Kristal_Rose) posted 2-Sep-2002 5:24am   Well, most cookie fortunes are boring. I think you could have fun making some more interesting ones up. You could do it on a very part-time basis. It also seems like it could play into your synchronistic philosophy, spreading seeds of ideas that people would receive exactly when they needed them.
Kristal_Rose	(reply to pterodactyl) posted 2-Sep-2002 5:38am   Sounds delightful. I once spent a great effort designing interactive tarot software. I only got as far as producing a basic reading java script, but I had plans to create animated tarot cards that took a person on an interactive VR journey to explore their issues, and could read a persons archetypal body language through their mouse behavior. I've outgrown the notion. Cookie fortunes should be written on rice paper one can instantly eat, like a secret message, perhaps flavored as an after-dinner mint. "Talking heart to heart with a telemarketer will increase your wisdom".
LuridHope	posted 3-Sep-2002 11:57pm   Dreams are the brains way of solving problems and dealing with situations. Often dreams come true because we end up living out these dreamed of solutions.

 
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