Do you think the global village needs a world language? If so, which language would you recommend and why?

Yes I agree we do need global language and Fownetik would be ideal. Not simply because I invented it, but because its a very easy language to learn, particularly for English speaking people.

**miykal: Have you tried esperanto? It's ludicrously easy to learn and it has consistent spelling and grammar.

***daver, thank you for your vote. And yes I have, there's quite a story to that. I will get back to it after I have listed the rules for Fownetik that I promised bill.

***bill, as promised you will find below the rules for Fownetik. Its not a perfect language like Esperanto, it has a few inconsistencies and anomalies, but that helps to give it a 'human face' don't you think? For instance while 'i' is sounded like the 'i' in bit', I have retained the sound for the pronoun 'I' because I feel it is a very powerful symbol, even an icon. Compared to English, Fownetik has very few anomalies.In English 'c' if not silent is sounded as a 'k' or 's' or 'ch' when with 'h', but never as a 'see'. The letters 'q' and 'x' are redundant, because they can be replaced with the sound 'kw' and 'eks' respectively. So you see Fownetik has only 24 letters not 26 as in English. That's a 7.6923% improvement already. Just kidding. Remember when you sound Fownetik words you are speaking Fownetik, not English. It just so happens that the majority of Fownetik words sound like English words, and that's a bonus. Fownetik grammar is precisely the same as English grammar, another plus. I will post this before I lose it, and continue with a new comment to list all the Fownetik sounds.

***bill, to continue. I have already pointed out that Fownetik has only 24 letters and apart from the pronoun 'I' (that wonderful icon), all the letters are sounded as you first learnt them at school. ie 'a' as in cat (kat), 'b' as in bat(bat) etc. They are changed to their other sounds by following them with another letter, eg. 'i' as in bit becomes 'iy' as in bite (in Fownetik its biyt). I have found that with only another 12sounds Fownetik can reproduce the majority of English sounds, see below:

Fownetik sound is as
sounded in the English words below:


a----at
ay---bay
b----bat
c----chat (ch)
ch---chat (ch)
d----dip
e----bet
ee---see
f----fog
g----got
h----hat
i----hit
iy---bite
j----jenny
k----key
l----lip
m----melt
n----not
o----hot
ow---slow
oo---too
oy---boy
or---for
p----put
kw---quick
r----rut
s----sit
sh---shut
t----tip
th---think
u----hut
v----vet
w----web
eks--exit (eksit the (x). Do you like that?)
y----yet
z----zoo

For example the Globalist maxim in Fownetik is:
Let mankiynd sher eekwallee and ferlee thee Earth's natral welth, and let evereewon bebefit ekskloosivlee from ther own laybor.

I am in the process of publishing a Fownetik spelling dictionary.

***daver, I started to learn Esperanto by Dr Zamenhof, a wonderful man, some years ago. At the time I was employed by Caterpillar in Australia, as their computer operations manager. It was an IBM 360 installation, so you see it was a while back. I was enthused with the idea of Esperanto I wrote to Bill Franklin the president of the company at that time. The purpose being to try to persuade him to make it a company policy for Esperanto to be used as a company second language. Being a multinational company I believed it would be an advantage to the company if everyone throughout the company, at least at management level could talk the same language. I received a very polite and positive reply from Mr Franklin. It was his opinion that because the USA was so influential throughout the business world, English would become the World language. I dropped Esperanto like a hot potato. I guess it was his remark that was the genesis for Fownetik and my own poor English spelling ability. At least my English teachers had me convinced I was at fault when it came to spelling words. It was not me that was at fault I finally discovered. Its the damn English language that's at fault. I spell words as I sound them. Why complicate a very simple idea. Just so we can belittle the poor average joe or jane who has difficulty spelling or pronouncing the words like xylophone and xenophobea, and so many more like them. In Fownetik the words are spelt ziylowfown, and zenowfowbeea. Simple eh?

I think it's laziness and ignorance that drive the desire for a single world language (especially if it's English).

Laziness because we're trying to get away with not learning something new and instead trying to get everyone else to learn our language (or a derivative).
Ignorance because the reality is that language isn't that great a barrier. Many/most Europeans know more than one language and in fact live in an area where many languages are spoken. They do fine, they don't need our help to impose some new language on them to learn. ...and it's insane to think that would work. We're talking about major cultural modification here - that doesn't come easily and forcing it is evil.

michael - sorry, but I'm not interested in learning your language.

Why ask us a question then tell us how to vote in the explanation?

as peculiar as it may sound, I believe we benefit from having to deal with multiple languages. Even when we speak the same language, words carry different nuances and mean slightly different things to individuals. I think that the overt effort we have to go through to deal with different languages helps keep us in shape for dealing with the more subtle effort we need to make to have clearer communication with speakers of the same language. Also, I think some languages are better at expressing some concepts. It would be a shame to lose that richness. It's a situation where there is strength in diversity.

Yes, and English is good enough. It is currently the language of commerce and diplomacy in all countries; some still use French, but not many. Point of fact the U.N. recognizes both of these languages for official use.

I liked this question until you started yammering about Fownetik. Also, it should be multiple-choice.

From what I've seen of Fownetic here, it's just English with a funny spelling, not a language at all. That's certainly not neutral nor would it help with national jealousies. Esperanto or Lojban are the obvious choices for that but they haven't caught on.

Michael, I have to agree that you're not making anything easier. Most English spellings have good morphological reasons behind them, even if the spelling does get a little complicated.

I agree that multiple languages enrich our global culture and are a good thing that I would hate to see disappear entirely. On the other hand, I think English has done a pretty good job of adopting other words and concepts and being flexible enough to continue to grow with our communication needs. I don't push the idea of English as a global language, but I don't feel any horror at the thought.

I believe the official languages of the UN are English, French, Russian, Chinese and Arabic, mostly for political reasons rather than any judgment about their linguistic suitability.

Michael, I'm sorry you have trouble with spelling. I have trouble with higher maths. Oh well. That's why we've got calculators and spell-checkers. If you're enjoying this project, I'm glad, but I really think you should give up on it achieving any kind of wider acceptance.

"Needs?" No. We don't have one now, and we're doing okay. It would be helpful, but I don't think it's ever going to happen. Even if it did, the degree of connectivity the world now enjoys, while historically unprecedented, is probably still insufficient to prevent linguistic drift from producing multiple languages over time. This just happens; there's very little that we can do about it.

In a side note, you've just got to get over "Fownetik". I tried to read your little piece in that writing system (which is different from a language) and found it really poorly done. (Although I must freely admit that I found the ideas expressed offensive, and so my opinion of the writing may have been colored by my opinion of the content.)

dab: Lojban?

***thank you everyone for your comments. Its possible I have real challenge ahead. I know it might sound a little crazy, but I agree with each one of you when I look at it from the different points of view put forward in this survey. And its the fact that as humans we have so many different outlooks that makes being human so wonderful.With one proviso, we are tolerant of one anothers point of view.

Brian, despite your occasional delusions you are not God.

Oh, I suppose I could be a little more polite.

Here's a little story. In the Andes in Chile is an international observatory called the European Southern Observatory. As with many such things, Britain is not a partner; it's a collaboration of France, Spain, Germany, Italy, and so on. What language do they speak there? Well, if Frenchman and a German are speaking, chances are very good that they speak each other's language. However, the Frenchman is unwilling to speak German, and vice versa. So, they speak English.

English is already the language of film and the net. It's rapidly becoming the language of science and diplomacy. To use your own logic, "since English is the principle language used on the net and by the business world and aviation, it gives English a head start over a language like Fownetik."

My mistake; it's miykal who thinks he's God. Brian, I apologize.

Oh, and some real criticism on fownetik. You're missing about half a dozen phonemes (sounds) that occur in English. You don't address stress (accents). You don't understand what a dipthong is. Hell, you don't even understand what a language is. Stop taking yourself so damned seriously. God knows none of us do.

***phi, have I said I'm God? You praise me. Why dost thou condemn me so much?

***bill, given I am lazy and ignorant, will you credit me with a logical mind? At least at level 3 out of 10 levels. You have witnessed the rules for Fownetik. How do you think they stack up against English regarding 'logic'? The English word conscious (very appropriate I think) begins with a see (get my point?), but is sounded with a 'k'.Church starts with a 'c' but is sounded as a 'ch'. That's because its followed by an 'h' you say. Fine what about chemical, cholera and chord? Cent, another word beginning with 'c'. The 'c' in this case is sounded as an 's'. That's because it follows the rule that when 'c' is followed by an 'e' the 'c' will be sounded as an 's'. Sorry its not a rule, and rightly so because what about cello?
I could go on and on, but I am sure you understand my point of view, me being a bad speller and all.

miykal... It's getting old.

Michael, Phi gave a coherent critique of the worst flaws of your project and you've ignored them completely. You keep asking "Isn't it cool?" and people are pretty universally telling you "No, sorry." What part of no didn't you understand? Perhaps if you put the degree of attention to learning to spell English correctly as you've put into developing a way to spell it incorrectly, you wouldn't have as much trouble.

As shorthand for yourself, I think it's a fine system. As anything applicable or useful for other people, I think it's useless.

gosh darn it! Jesus was a white man who spoke english so everyone else should be, too! Praise the Lord! Amen! Hallelooya!

Feh.

Language is important to cultural identity. I'd hate to think what the culture of a world that used something as asinine as Fownetik would be.

Michael, why not spend some time working on becoming a better speller; rather than spend all that time creating a writing system variant that is highly unlikely to ever catch on (at least not in your lifetime)?

Ebonics rulez

We need an option for, "the global village HAS a world language". English is, warts and all, the de facto common tongue of the global village (internet, etc.). From the examples I've seen of Fownetik, it's basically English spelled differently -- if that is the only difference, I don't see the point - we have spell checkers. If the difference is more complex, I'll reserve judgment. It does seem to me that language is the sort of thing where instituting it will do next to no good - it will evolve as it will.

After reading the comments, I see that my understanding was correct. Given the prevalence of computer spell-checking programs, Fownetik is not an improvement of English. While the spelling of English is difficult for non-native speaker, the irregularity of it is a much greater challenge that is not addressed at all by Fownetik. Esperanto dealt with it rather well, but turned out to be a flop because, as several people here have mentioned, English had already gained ascendancy as the world common language. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Steve: I think Lojban is spelled right. Anyway, it's an outgrowth of Loglan which was short for Logical Language. Some guy in the early 60's had this idea that the way people think is strongly influenced by the language they speak. In fact, the range of things that they are capable of thinking depends on the language they think in. To prove this, he created a language based on predicate logic, Loglan. His idea was to teach it to his kids and see if they turned out more capable of thinking logically as a result. There was some sort of schism in the people who thought this was a cool idea and the splinter group called their language Lojban. I ran into them a couple times at cons a few years ago. One of their ideas is that if legal documents, say contracts or laws, were written in Lojban they would be much clearer and less ambiguous. I've never learned the language so I have no opinion if they're right or not.

dab: Thanks; I'd never heard of that. As a side note, Steven Pinker (whom I just don't get tired of recommending, it seems; I should have some kind of endorsement deal) does quite a job on that idea that what language you use determines what you can think.

I think we should all use binary, or "01010 10101010010101110 1011101011100100101 1010101010101, 010101010. 00101001001001!"

Actually, phonetic spelling really isn't a good way to teach people to spell as children, and it's doubtful if it would work any better for older people. I learned to spell using something called i.t.a. (the initial teaching alphabet), which was an experimental teaching method used in the 60s, mostly in Great Britain, but also in some American schools (including mine). Although my spelling has turned out okay, the phonetic spelling system i.t.a. involved was abandoned soon after its implementation because it didn't work very well. See also http://www.riggsinst.org/~riggs/artp25.htm

Yes, but NOT that fownetik nonsense :) Most people are learning English now anyway. We might as well just go with it, and then in maybe 20 years we'll all have to learn Chinese as we are overrun population-wise ;) Language alters on its own, without us trying to change the entire system on purpose.

Jen: Actually English is usually thought of as a great language for communicating, although not for actually figuring out how to write a given word ;) Many foreign-language authors have said that they were frustrated in their "native language" but loved to write once they learned English. Apparently we have stolen from so many other languages that we have many ways of saying the same thing, all with different nuances. Much more variety than the "Eskimo - 40 words for snow" rumor ;)

Lisa: good point! English has more words for snow than Eskimo does.

Apart from the disparaging remarks, I have enjoyed everyones comment. In particular the helpful comments by daver, bill, romkey, jen,dab, hunter, steve, phi, cpierson, eric, Jody, and lisashea. And grmbrand and seven's sense of humour. I thank you all. I find SC to be a very helpful forum for airing ones ideas.

You're a weird guy. No offense. Weird is good. Sometimes...

Don't think it's necessary, do think it would be useful.
English seems to have filled this niche to a large extent, though of course it's somewhat self-serving of me to say so. I doubt I'd be willing to learn a new language for the purpose, though it depends somewhat on what services "the global village" provides for me in that language.

yes I think the world needs a common language.. I also think that everyone should know at least two.
however, thoughts and practice are different. I know one (and have a tendency to forget that one). I studied french for two years in high school. I can recognize french when I see it (or hear it).
also, as a 'merican, I think english should be universal (yes I am agreeing with the rest of the arrogant people in the US about this)

jen, I agree, and yet we seem to be going backward. eg we cant say actor and actress, that's discriminatory. If you've not already read it, you just might enjoy reading 'Zen and the Art of Motor Cycle Maintenance' by Robert M Pirzig.

miykal - what's wrong with just actor? the person's name can usually help you distinguish whether it is a male actor or a female actor? why do we even need diminutive "ess" and "ette" versions of jobs/careers? Why do we need waiter and waitress? why not all waiter or the (horrid) waitperson, or better yet, server? The diminutive ending is, consciously or subconsciously, seen to lessen the persons effectiveness by so many! Was my mother a teacherette? Will my daughter grow up to be a veterinarianette? I hope not.

Jody: Isn't server kind of demeaning? Should the patron then be called the master? Let's just call everyone comrade and unite.

How about "waitron"?

Ooooooh, I *like* waitron :)

Jody, why do you think the "ess" suffix is a diminutive? To me it just means female and since women aren't less than men, no lessening is intended, implied, or stated. I don't really have a problem with referring to females as actors either, just wondering why some people seem to think that calling a woman a woman is a slight.

I spent some time learning Lojban. Lots of fun. The language has many interesting and useful features. They got lojban.org a few days ago, but (as of this writing) haven't set up the new web site yet. Meanwhile, the old one is still up.

For me, the problem with the "ess" (or "ix" or "ette") endings is that it implies a) that it matters what sex a person performing a particular function is and b) that somehow that function is different if performed by a man or a woman.

Waitron. I like that. It has efficiency written all over it. How many batteries do you suppose one takes?

dab - I don't feel calling a woman a woman is a problem at all. I feel there's a problem when a job has a different title for a woman or a man, especially in a male-dominated field or in a field where the top job always goes to a man (implying, of course, the women could never rise to the top position). I have a hot button somewhere around this topic, so I'll stop there (and no offense meant).

and isn't that a lovely word jen, engineerette. I'm in love with an engineerette.


Jody, and hunter, its not the activity nor the person doing the activity that's important here. Its the accuracy of the words we are using to describe an event so that we can picture it in our mind, since we do not think in words we think in images, like in dreams. Right jen?

jen: Be afraid, be very afraid.

Michael, your focus on jen (my wife) is kind of creeping me out. You seem to often direct your comments towards her (though she never addressed you), and now you are implying that you are in love with her perhaps? Do you realize how creepy you're being?

Michael, I am working pretty hard to live in a reality where the sex of another person is immaterial except when it is actually relevant.

If one's boss goes to a meeting and says "Here's something an engineerette in my department came up with" it adds the (in our culture very loaded) context of the person's sex. Her sex is irrelevant to her professional function.

Given that we are nowhere near eliminating gendered third person singular pronouns, you can clearly indicate the subject's sex when you use one of those.

Do engineerettes design waitrons?

Michael, there is a difference between sharing and imposing.

English IS the world language. It probably shouldn't be, but that is just how it has turned out.

Esperanto is the best option I know of. Respelling English really won't do.

I don't understand the question & I don't know what Fownetik is.